EU vote?

[Darcydog]

Originally Posted by mss

Let's not twist words. I did not demand, I asked ploitely!

I assumed that you had mistakenly not maintained your usual approach of providing links to support your views. And we got a link to a Spectator article as the independent authoritative source.

Wel, "Polite" is not how I read it.

As for twisting words - where did I say in my post of yesterday that the link was an "authoritative source" ?

I quoted in that post articles from the Independent, the Express and the Spectator!

I was not citing either as "Authoritative"

Once again you read what is NOT there and then try to infer I said something I did not.

If you are doing this deliberately then this is a known Troll tactic - If you are doing it without any thought at all - then i would ask that you be more careful and not to jump to conclusions.

Originally Posted by bobthebuilder

Your first point is just too simplistic. Referenda are not held in politically and economically stable environments, circumstances change, so that the result will change. For example a UK Leave vote might have a substantial impact on a further Scottish referendum. And people are typically influenced in elections by last minute events.

I don't buy your implication that one or more of the referenda has been unfair. Please can you give an example?

I see a Referendum as being a "snapshot" of a populations feelings on a particular day. In fact - it is not even the populations snapshot - it can only reflect the overall views of those eligible to vote and those of that group that bother to.

Much has been made of the appalling In and Out campaigns and the "Fear" of one side versus the lack of "info" on the other.

So I would say that any such vote will have aspects that are unfair because we live in an imperfect world. What this Referendum does is to give each and every one of us eligible to vote, a chance to push the Tiller to either change direction or stay on a certain course.

Whichever way the vote goes - all parties and individuals should accept the result with good grace.

[wraymond]

Originally Posted by topman

Rather than thinking they've somehow been conditioned, do you think it's possible that they think it's just a good idea?

Quite possibly, anything is possible after all. However given the thrust of EU fervour in the leading States it is reasonable to assume the 'good idea' feeling may not be the result of an open mind.

Originally Posted by bobthebuilder

Oh dear, guesswork? Don't think so, he said it himself.


Good old honourable Farage....

Nigel Farage has been accused of "blatant scaremongering" by a fellow Leave campaigner for suggesting there could be a risk of sex attacks on women by migrants if Britain stays in the EU.

I’ve no wish, chuckle, chuckle, to ruin your day Bob, honest, but re your post on Nige (you know, the boozer/smoker/married to a German lady) allegedly having subversive refusenick tendencies, have a look at today’s Times article by Michael Savage, Francis Elliot and Bruno Waterfield in Brussels. Any link I try fails, I think it’s because there is a charge for it.

The gist: The Remainders in parliament already have advanced plans for disruption in the House in the event of an Out win. They plan to disrupt and endlessly delay the passage through the House unless they ensure we stay in the Free Trade Area (you may recall the Ref is for IN/OUT only!). Also, following another ‘respected’ poll, 68% of the public think the OUT campaign is the most truthful. It’s not unlike a snowball rolling down a hill.

[bobthebuilder]

For once DD, I agree with you, and a snapshot is a very good description of the process.

And like you, I hope whoever loses doesn't bleat on about being robbed or wanting another referendum.

[wraymond]

Originally Posted by Darcydog

I see a Referendum as being a "snapshot" of a populations feelings on a particular day. In fact - it is not even the populations snapshot - it can only reflect the overall views of those eligible to vote and those of that group that bother to.

Much has been made of the appalling In and Out campaigns and the "Fear" of one side versus the lack of "info" on the other.

So I would say that any such vote will have aspects that are unfair because we live in an imperfect world. What this Referendum does is to give each and every one of us eligible to vote, a chance to push the Tiller to either change direction or stay on a certain course.

Whichever way the vote goes - all parties and individuals should accept the result with good grace.

It seems something is afoot. Three polls from yesterday, I know nothing of their reputations, have been published.
ICM gave OUT a 5 point lead on 48%
YouGov found OUT on 45% with Remain on 41%
TNS found OUT at 43% with Remain on 41%
Of the eight most recently published polls, one was tied, two showed Remain ahead and five had OUT in the lead.
Early days but it might be time to hedge bets.

[Darcydog]

I am in the fortunate position of being able to say "Great! - that is my retirement plans sorted!" - if we vote IN

Or - "Oh well ! - if I have to get a Visa I would rather go to Australia." if we Vote OUT

I just hope that like the Scottish Referendum - the result is decisive. No knife edge stuff

[RobSun]

I have read this thread with great interest and I am enjoying the debate.

I originally was an out, then became unsure, started to lean in but now I am firmly on the out side. I have been very dissapointed with the lack of facts so did my own digging, and have come to my conclusions.

I stated at first I was an absolute outer. This isn't from any new considerations but goes back to as early as 1981 and the reasons I would like to share.

I at that time worked for a Swiss/German engineering company but UK based. I had to go over to head office in Switzerland, and visit plants in Europe. During one of those trips I and a few colegues were sat in a board room in the black forest region of Germany with our UK directors and senior European directors. We were told that we were very fortunate to be working for a European company as this safegaurded our futures. One of my Geordie colegues asked for him to illuminate on that statement. We were all stund by the reply. We were told tha there was a European wide plan to end all manufacturing in the UK and produce everything on the mainland and export to us. Our jobs were therefore safe. The question was then asked, how was the UK expected to earn and survive. They said the UK would have banking, call centres, retail, and heritage tourism. Germany and France would be the power houses and manufacturers of Europe.

In 1990 I was working for a Birmingham based engineering group and was having a meeting with the MD of a Sheffield hand tool manufacturer. We got on well and after the meeting had more general discussion and our backgrounds. He had been a senior manager at British Steel and told me this. He had been instructed by our government during the 80s to take a big wig E U politition around all the Bitish Steel sites because they were basically slagging off our inefficient industries. He was told to show him everything and create a good impression to fight back. He collected him from Heathrow took him to Wales, Scotland, and eventually ended with Scunthorpe. After two weeks he took him back to Heathrow and on the way asked him what he really thought. The reply was that it was in far better shape than he expected was run efficiently and well managed. Anyway it matters not because in 10 years none of it will exist.

What are you saying he asked. The European plan is for all manufacturing to be done on the mainland withGreat Britain being a consumer.

Well they have nearly succeeded haven't they with the help of our own governments.

I voted in in the 70s since the 80s regretted it. I believe Great Britain would now be a stronger country if we hadn't joined and although we will have a hiccup at first we will be stronger again out. Even the experts predicting a resession say it will be miniscule compared to the bankers created ressesion of 2008.

[topman]

Originally Posted by wraymond

Quite possibly, anything is possible after all. However given the thrust of EU fervour in the leading States it is reasonable to assume the 'good idea' feeling may not be the result of an open mind.

Its is yes. Who knows how anyone came to their decision ?

[VVC-Geeza]

If the OUT vote wins the day, how long after before it happens?

[wraymond]

Originally Posted by topman

Its is yes. Who knows how anyone came to their decision ?

Those having made the decision? If voters are deemed intelligent enough to vote they must be intelligent enough to vote er.....correctly?

[suzublu]

I heard, that if we vote to remain, Brussels are going to ask the Imperial War Museum to change its name to, .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................................... The Metric War Museum