EU vote?

[Mike Noc]

Maybe, but then again maybe not.

And even if we do, after we have recovered from it, we may well prosper far more outside of the EU than we would have had we stayed in.

[bobthebuilder]

Originally Posted by Mike Noc

Maybe, but then again maybe not.

And even if we do, after we have recovered from it, we may well prosper far more outside of the EU than we would have had we stayed in.

And we may not prosper more outside the EU than in. But we will do so after probably passing through a self made recession. And in times of reduced tax revenues, it's the vulnerable that under this government suffers the most.

[Gman2]

Originally Posted by Saga Lout

So, we gave away £8.5 Billion of borrowed money that we also pick up the interest on for free? It's still better off in our till.
If you then factor in the money taken out of the country by Foreign companies, and then the child benefit claimed by Foreign nationals to send home, and then the money being sent by those who work here to other countries...It's a tidy sum that's not helping our economy to thrive.
If I asked you to go to the bank to borrow £100 to give to a stranger, you would think I'm mad but it's what we do as a country everyday, now that is madness.

If foreign nationals sending home their child benefit is a big deal to you and is a factor that will make you vote OUT then fair enough.

Some bigger picture stats from the CBI below though:

1) 71% of CBI member businesses report that the UK’s membership of the EU has had an overall positive impact on their business, including 67% of SME members. Only 13% said there had been a negative impact. Overall,78% said they would vote to remain in the EU in a referendum, with 77% of SME’s taking the same position.
2) A CBI literature review suggests that the net benefit of EU membership to the UK could be in the region of 4-5% of GDP or £62bn-£78bn a year – roughly the economies of the North East and Northern Ireland taken together.

So taking point 2 and remove what we net pay in off the lowest estimate and round it down for good measure then the UK economy benefits by c £50bn. This excludes the financial service sector that, as I mentioned earlier, is the financial hub for the EU and if someone's got the figure what The City brings in then the total benefit soon stacks up.

I'd argue that the above puts sending money home a bit into perspective but what do I know.....

[Darcydog]

The Remain camp has not spelt out exactly how the EU is going to reform. It is all very well for the BT Boss to say "let's stay in a reformed EU" when we all know that the EU will not budge unless you kick it.

When I see the mess that the Eurozone is in and the decline in the EU I wonder why on earth the remain camp are not setting out their stall as regards exactly WHAT reforms their ("stay in a") reformed EU will undergo?

In marked contrast the Brexit camp has outlined the options - and they are emulate Normay, or Switzerland, or simply go WTO or something inbetween or something entirely new.

Either way it seems clear now that the economy is likely to do well either in or out. And even if tariffs were applied - a) that will hit the EU and Germany in particular more than it hits us and b) the tariffs we would pay would be far less than the net cost of being an EU member.

Sir Mike Rake backed the euro and opposed a referendum as did Gavin Paterson. They never even wanted their employees to have a say on this issue.

Now THAT speaks volumes............... - I am sure BT employees are aware of the position of their "Boss" on their right to vote on the issue.

[Gman2]

Oh - and another one from the CBI for those thinking that the EU hinders the UK accessing world markets:

The EU has helped open global markets to UK firms on strong terms

•The EU is a springboard for trade with the rest of the world through its global clout: it accounted for 23% of the global economy in 2012 in dollar terms. Through 30 trade deals negotiated by the EU, including the Single Market itself, British firms have full access to a $24 trillion market. The recent deal with Canada and on-going discussions with Japan and the US could double this to $47 trillion - the UK would struggle to achieve the same quality of trade deals independently.
•58% of CBI members think that extra-EU trade agreements have had a positive impact on their business, including 55% of SMEs, compared to 3% who thought the impact was negative.

Ok the 2012 figure is a bit outdated but worth pondering.

No doubt there'll be howls of don't believe the CBI as it's a slave to the IN campaign and no doubt you OUTers will have access to the real stats that the government's too scared to publish..

[Darcydog]

Originally Posted by Gman2

If foreign nationals sending home their child benefit is a big deal to you and is a factor that will make you vote OUT then fair enough.

Some bigger picture stats from the CBI below though:

1) 71% of CBI member businesses report that the UK’s membership of the EU has had an overall positive impact on their business, including 67% of SME members. Only 13% said there had been a negative impact. Overall,78% said they would vote to remain in the EU in a referendum, with 77% of SME’s taking the same position.
2) A CBI literature review suggests that the net benefit of EU membership to the UK could be in the region of 4-5% of GDP or £62bn-£78bn a year – roughly the economies of the North East and Northern Ireland taken together.

So taking point 2 and remove what we net pay in off the lowest estimate and round it down for good measure then the UK economy benefits by c £50bn. This excludes the financial service sector that, as I mentioned earlier, is the financial hub for the EU and if someone's got the figure what The City brings in then the total benefit soon stacks up.

I'd argue that the above puts sending money home a bit into perspective but what do I know.....

We all know what BIG business wants -

But people at the sharp end think differently it seems

More than 200 bosses of small firms have signed an open letter urging Britain to leave the European Union.

The small company owners said they want the Britons to vote for "Brexit" to give them the "flexibility and adaptability are key to our long term success".

The letter urges Britons not to listen to "a minority of managers from Britain's largest companies" who want Britons to stay in the EU.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...or-Brexit.html

It all depends upon what and who you put your faith in?

[Gman2]

Originally Posted by Darcydog

In marked contrast the Brexit camp has outlined the options - and they are emulate Normay, or Switzerland, or simply go WTO or something inbetween or something entirely new.

Ah ha - now we're getting to the nub of it.

BREXIT have stated in the past that the above models will not suit the UK and indeed the Norwegian Finance Minister has stated that bearing in mind the influence and size of the UK economy then what may suit the Norwegians is unlikely to satisfy the UK. As what's been discussed already Norway pays in, takes the bulk of EU legislation and has no influence at the table. Switzerland has an even worse deal so I understand. Taking the opinion of the OUTers here on the forum you don't want to pay into Europe anymore so where next and it all goes around in one big circle? If we vote OUT then negotiate some half baked Norwegian deal where the UK still pays in then I reckon many of you would reckon you've been had over then what's it all been for

"Something inbetween or something entirely new" is "fag packet politics". Don't need to tell you what a juggernaut the EU is like trying to negotiate and strike a deal so what happens in the meantime to UK businesses and the economy?

Originally Posted by Darcydog

We all know what BIG business wants -

But people at the sharp end think differently it seems

77% of SME's see the benefit of being in the EU. SME's? SMALL and MEDIUM ENTERPRISES.

[Polly]

Originally Posted by Gman2

If foreign nationals sending home their child benefit is a big deal to you and is a factor that will make you vote OUT then fair enough.



Some bigger picture stats from the CBI below though:



1) 71% of CBI member businesses report that the UK’s membership of the EU has had an overall positive impact on their business, including 67% of SME members. Only 13% said there had been a negative impact. Overall,78% said they would vote to remain in the EU in a referendum, with 77% of SME’s taking the same position.

2) A CBI literature review suggests that the net benefit of EU membership to the UK could be in the region of 4-5% of GDP or £62bn-£78bn a year – roughly the economies of the North East and Northern Ireland taken together.



So taking point 2 and remove what we net pay in off the lowest estimate and round it down for good measure then the UK economy benefits by c £50bn. This excludes the financial service sector that, as I mentioned earlier, is the financial hub for the EU and if someone's got the figure what The City brings in then the total benefit soon stacks up.



I'd argue that the above puts sending money home a bit into perspective but what do I know.....

If I had one less brain cell, I would be a complete imbecile, but even with that one cell, your assumptions regarding point 2 are really quite worthless. Calculating the value of the goods we send to the EU is only one side of the equation, because it excludes the cost of these goods. I won't bother to explain that, other than to suggest that the country would quickly become bankrupt if we imported more than we exported. Along with our net contribution to the EU, you also have to add the cost of the goods we buy from them. So at the moment, the true cost of our exports to EU, are heavily subsidised by our exports to ROW.


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[Gman2]

Originally Posted by Polly

If I had one less brain cell, I would be a complete imbecile, but even with that one cell, your assumptions regarding point 2 are really quite worthless. Calculating the value of the goods we send to the EU is only one side of the equation, because it excludes the cost of these goods. I won't bother to explain that, other than to suggest that the country would quickly become bankrupt if we imported more than we exported. Along with our net contribution to the EU, you also have to add the cost of the goods we buy from them. So at the moment, the true cost of our exports to EU, are heavily subsidised by our exports to ROW.


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If you have an issue with the CBI figures then I suggest you take it up with them and OK me factoring in our contribution may be a bit simplistic.

Still it doesn't get away from the argument often put up by the OUTers of "how does the UK really benefit from being in the UK" and I'm talking on the economic front here - both from a EU and a global perspective. You talk about ROW exports - how many of them may be brokered through the EU? It's suggested that Dyson gained some funding from the EU to relocate to Malaysia in 2002. I wouldn't blame if he did 'cos you'll access funding from whatever source (obviously not from Organised Crime etc ) to grow and build your business.

[KWIL]

So now we have the input from the lamented Mr Brown, late Prime Minister of these Isles.

Vote to Remain as it is in the best interests of Labour Voters.
Stay in the EUSR, European Union of Socialist Republics.

Just one more reason to Leave.