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Old 23rd May 2020, 19:49   #21
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Just read the comments quickly, I think the surcharge has got lost in translation.

Anyone coming from a commonwealth or non-EU country on a residence visa has to pay £400 per year per person for a NHS surcharge, this will be every year until Indefinite Leave to remain is achieved-this could take upto 10 years, but is usually 5. So this will be around £3000 over and above the visa etc fees which will be a further £6000 or so. For a family of 4 this mounts up quite quickly. Taking into consideration that during those 5-10 years, they will also be paying NI, income tax and VAT anyway.

Many of these people are on tier 2 or 5, skilled workers visa's, given to people that are employed from outside the EU where a UK (and EU) worker has not met the requirements.

The plan is to exclude NHS applicant; nurses, Dr's dentists, physios etc to encourage them to apply. Much like staff discounts are given in many industries.


Another lesser known fact in the same vein, is that UK citizens living and working overseas, expats I suppose, are also required to pay a NHS surcharge when visiting the Uk, if they have been back here for less than 6 months. This would and does include UK born citizens.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 20:30   #22
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Originally Posted by Stevie25 View Post
I have paid, and continue to pay tax since I was 16 - are you suggesting I pay a further ‘surcharge’ to use the NHS?
Not a bad idea (with some limitations) but better you read the whole thread...otherwise we'll go off at a tangent
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Old 23rd May 2020, 20:34   #23
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Originally Posted by rab60bit View Post
Not a bad idea (with some limitations) but better you read the whole thread...otherwise we'll go off at a tangent

I started the thread!
It went well off the tangent when I Re-read some of the comments.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 20:43   #24
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Originally Posted by spyder View Post
Just read the comments quickly, I think the surcharge has got lost in translation.

Anyone coming from a commonwealth or non-EU country on a residence visa has to pay £400 per year per person for a NHS surcharge, this will be every year until Indefinite Leave to remain is achieved-this could take upto 10 years, but is usually 5. So this will be around £3000 over and above the visa etc fees which will be a further £6000 or so. For a family of 4 this mounts up quite quickly. Taking into consideration that during those 5-10 years, they will also be paying NI, income tax and VAT anyway.

Many of these people are on tier 2 or 5, skilled workers visa's, given to people that are employed from outside the EU where a UK (and EU) worker has not met the requirements.

The plan is to exclude NHS applicant; nurses, Dr's dentists, physios etc to encourage them to apply. Much like staff discounts are given in many industries.


Another lesser known fact in the same vein, is that UK citizens living and working overseas, expats I suppose, are also required to pay a NHS surcharge when visiting the Uk, if they have been back here for less than 6 months. This would and does include UK born citizens.
I can see and agree with some of your arguement but staff discount - noooo!
If you mean a bit like a company vehicle for a Ford Maindealer Salesman - HMCR class that as payment in kind which is subject to Income Tax ain't it!!
IMHO that's still a dumb deal for the country and the NHS - just look at the numbers in my little scenario (not actuals but fair guesses - and on the low side I may be so bold) - then I'd hope you'll agree it's financial lunacy.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 20:50   #25
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I can see and agree with some of your arguement but staff discount - noooo!
If you mean a bit like a company vehicle for a Ford Maindealer Salesman - HMCR class that as payment in kind which is subject to Income Tax ain't it!!
IMHO that's still a dumb deal for the country and the NHS - just look at the numbers in my little scenario (not actuals but fair guesses - and on the low side I may be so bold) - then I'd hope you'll agree it's financial lunacy.
Not my argument or idea at all, just what does happen with visa's applicants and the government's proposal that is currently under review.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 21:57   #26
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I refer you to how Christopher (Mileshawke56) succinctly puts it.
May I offer you an hypothetical scenario -
'Foreign' medical worker 'A' takes up a post in the UK after being recruited by an overseas agency (obo NHS) with the idea of spending 4-5 years in the system (or even contemplating becoming a UK citizen). By accepting the post we should assume 'A' has a contract with all the usual relevant details of employment etc. and also meets all the experience/qualification requirements. It is a given that 'A' is seeking employment in the UK and finds the offer/T&C's suitably attractive - there's no force or coercion involved.
'A' proves a very competent and diligent worker but after 9 months is involved in a serious rail accident together with 'B' a UK born colleague (of similar age/experience demographic - say has worked for 8 years after qualifiying) whilst in transit to work one day - they both suffer similar multiple injuries and are justifiably off work for 3 months (each spending 7 weeks in the various stages of hospitalisation); thankfully both fully recover and return to duties.
So far, 'B' has paid UK tax and NI for 8 of their qualified working years, 'A' has probably paid 8 months emergency tax and perhaps NI contributions. They both receive the same treatment and benefits whilst in hospital and throughout R&R at a conservative total cost to the system of £180K (£90K each) including all the special services whilst being recovered from the rail crash.
At the time of the accident clearly 'B' has paid more tax and NI into the system (for arguements sake let's say their contribution is £28K), 'A' meantime has paid £2K.
Neither of these figures comes anywhere close to the actual costs to the system but WE (you, me and millions of others and our forbears) meantime take care of the deficit.
Subsequently, after 4 years happily working in the UK 'A' takes up a post in the USA whilst 'B' works a further 20 years in the system (that = a 28 year NHS shift including that damned Covid-19 pandemic back in 2020/21...) and takes a slightly early retirement due to their back never fully recovering from the rail accident.
Over their working life, 'B' was promoted 5 grades, later had a child and had their appendix removed (NHS) and overall pays £120K into the system before retirement. 'A' didn't have further need of the NHS and over 4 years paid £9K into the system and received a tax refund of £1.3K on departing for the USA; the Health Charge in this scenario was applied and secured a further (massive...) £2K NHS contribution during the period of their time in the UK.
You can pick holes in it but I rest my case and just boggle at the thought of what many percieve as a massive magic money pit, FOC NHS for all - wake up and smell the coffee! The fact that an NHS worker also may have to use the system is a fact but not an excuse.
Not the original question but by all means let's value/pay NHS workers more (specifically those on the front line) but get real in the process.
ok I understand what you say but I don't not agree with your view.
I worked for 38ish years paying tax, I was born in the UK, am I any more entitled to NHS care then the 17 year old UK born teenager injured on his first day of work? Neither of us work for the NHS!

Using your example I still do not think the foreign NHS worked should pay, can we agree to disagree?

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Old 23rd May 2020, 22:23   #27
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ok I understand what you say but I don't not agree with your view.
I worked for 38ish years paying tax, I was born in the UK, am I any more entitled to NHS care then the 17 year old UK born teenager injured on his first day of work? Neither of us work for the NHS!

Using your example I still do not think the foreign NHS worked should pay, can we agree to disagree?

macafee2
They will be paying,probably more than the 17 year old, as their NI and tax will be considerably higher. If, by them not paying a surcharge, we and our families have a better healthcare system, I am game for that.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 22:40   #28
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Originally Posted by macafee2 View Post
ok I understand what you say but I don't not agree with your view.
I worked for 38ish years paying tax, I was born in the UK, am I any more entitled to NHS care then the 17 year old UK born teenager injured on his first day of work? Neither of us work for the NHS!

Using your example I still do not think the foreign NHS worked should pay, can we agree to disagree?

macafee2
A fair alternative example to quote - but assuming your 17 year old isn't injured for life (perish that terrible thought) he would expect/accept entering the system and using it as his needs required whilst contributing to support that system just like millions of others (the wide based cone funding theory works, the inverse truncated cone is simply impossible) otherwise the whole thing doesn't and cannot work.
Covid-19 apart, we see the NHS can barely keep up as it is, adding deliberate funding exceptions whilst acknowledging the NHS is already treated too loosely as 'free to everyone' and equally abused by some (a significant number) from outside the system who have/will never contribute just makes it worse.
It's one of the few great 'socialist' ideas this country has adopted but it was never intended to deal with the spectrum and shear number of ills that it contends with today - after just 75 years we're killing it stone dead by remaining a soft option for a path to good health that appears to some as FREE, paid for by somebody else (and I'm not referreing to the foreign NHS worker that's been the subject of this thread!)
Let's agree to disagree...

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Old 23rd May 2020, 22:52   #29
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Originally Posted by Stevie25 View Post
I have paid, and continue to pay tax since I was 16 - are you suggesting I pay a further ‘surcharge’ to use the NHS?
Forward to your post 23. Let's just consider the surcharge as a modest 'top-up' for someone joining 'the Club' later than their contemporaries. You're a long standing Club member so the surcharge wouldn't apply.
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Old 24th May 2020, 02:12   #30
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...
You can pick holes in it but I rest my case and just boggle at the thought of what many percieve as a massive magic money pit, FOC NHS for all - wake up and smell the coffee!

If you are trying to suggest that NHS treatment FOC at point of delivery, the whole premis of the NHS isn't possible, then I'd suggest you take another look at public finance. The truth is that successive governments would rather spend tax-payers money on the 'defence' budget and run down the NHS. And that this, up until now has been supported by the active electorate and accepted by the inactive electorate. It takes an active electorate with a will to make things happen any differently. The truth is, it is possible. Just that there's a lack of will to support it. Perhaps in future things might change...
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