Bent strut more likely than bent hub?

[drjonts]

Hi folks,

So, Just trying at present to work out why my front left has nearly 2 deg of negative camber and suspected either the hub has moved up the strut a tad...or something (strut bottom or hub casting itself) has bent.

History...I did have to take to a verge in some avoiding action execution in August and lying in wait for me among the grass was a short length of kerb over a drain - luckily it was a ramp, flat ,ramp section that the car rode over vigorously. Stopped, checked all over...nothing untoward. Car drove OK no weird wandering or pulling, couldn't see any tyre damage or wheel deformation and have not really noticed any handling weirdness TBH. Occasional road surfaces and certain patches I commonly pass through on a regular basis have made me consider that it could do with a 4 wheel check but haven't been at all concerned.

Fast forward to this weekend when I spot inner edge wear on that tyre (very narrow band less than 1" wide) so thought it best to have 4 wheel alignment done. Before going I start to have a look around... more carefully than previously and I can see the camber (now I'm looking for it and it is not parked on a hill as usual) when viewing the car from the front. Also, top of the left front tyre closer to the strut and bottom spring pan than the right side. I could get my fingers in the gap on the right...not on the left.

Hunter system at my local place (AMS Tyres, Newton Abbot) revealed the negative camber on that side to be just over 1.8 degrees (compared to 0.8 degrees negative on the right). So left is 1 degree more negative than right. The lads also found toe out on both fronts...which won't have helped that inner edge wear.

They also spot that although the thrust angle at the rear is in spec. the left rear is toe-in is out of spec. and they could solve all the toe issues but not the camber. they said they could do the full front and rear toe alignment (£55) and I could leave the front camber as it was (just out of the spec. range) but that it was best I do what I wanted to with the suspension and then get it back to them for alignment so I wouldn't pay twice...just when I come back.

Alignment report attached for your delectation.

So run home and jack it up to have a look! Could a minor tweak to the hub clamping bolt position be needed? Would that dial it back into spec.? Having read some posts by a couple of you chaps about the bottom end of the strut being kinked at the point it is pinched to the hub methinks I could be in the market for a strut! Am I looking at some dreaded strut crease?

Well, I undid the pinch bolt, knocked the hub down the strut but with failing light and time I didn't drive it all the way off to be able to check for kinks in the strut. Knocked hub back up on to the strut but not all the way...stopped about 3 mm lower than fully home on the strut which has given me similar clearance between tyre edge and strut/spring pan. Did everything back up but feel that the pinch bolt could...I say could...be getting to that point where if I keep tightening past 65 lbs ft it doesn't feel right...so in the short term a new bolt will be ordered at least.

So...do I repeat what I did and strip the strut off to check for a kink or do I whizz down to the alignment place to see what the camber reads now? My question is...can the hub pinch bolt arrangement take the loads in service if the strut isn't fully down in the hub pinch clamp (only 3 mm it could move anyway)...will it hold tight?

Anyone tweaked camber by doing this and found it held OK in service?

Looking forward to solving this...and hoping that one can't bend the hub casting? Looks hefty. Also, I am almost sure the bottom arm should be OK as that didn't get whacked or move in a weird way as far as I can tell but happy for any sage advice. Wondered if the bottom balljoint could be a culprit but on jacking up the car and letting it back down the clearance between tyre edge and strut doesn't change.

Cheers for now gang.

Jonty

[EastPete]

I think it is not a good idea to leave the hub 3mm below the proper 'stop' on the strut - it should be assembled properly and the pinch bolt correctly tightened (100 Nm if I remember correctly).

I think it is either a bent strut (this was the cause of the excessive negative camber on my car), or less likely a bent lower arm. If there are no knocking noises, then the lower arm joints are probably OK.

I never try to split the hub/strut on the car - reassembly is a pain in my experience, particularly if the strut is not straight. I think you need to get the strut/hub assembly off the car and split them so you can get a good look at the strut. As you say, look for a crease where the top of the hub meets the strut.

Keep us informed !

Pete

[drjonts]

Cheers Pete.

I read your story with great interest and most helpful indeed.

I too am not excited about the prospect of leaving that little clearance on the seating of the strut but I'm just wondering if it has altered anything. I think i'll go out there tomorrow with some straight edges etc., park the car on the flat and eye up a few measurements to see what that camber looks like.

To return the car back to where it was earlier today with the strut fully seated and 1 deg 47' neg. camber should be about 15 minutes work!

Just feel the strut pinch bolt best be a new one!

Will let you know the outcome.

Jonty

[drjonts]

By the way...strut pinch bolt...

Mine just seems to want to keep on doing up and I'm at about 60 lbs ft on the torque wrench. Meant to go to 74 lbs ft but I'm worried that something is stretching.

Anyone had this same feeling as the pinch bolt is doing up only to find it is in fact fine and torques up OK?

Going to get a spare anyhow methinks.

J

[marinabrian]

Originally Posted by drjonts

By the way...strut pinch bolt...

Mine just seems to want to keep on doing up and I'm at about 60 lbs ft on the torque wrench. Meant to go to 74 lbs ft but I'm worried that something is stretching.

Anyone had this same feeling as the pinch bolt is doing up only to find it is in fact fine and torques up OK?

Going to get a spare anyhow methinks.

J

Take it out and look at the central section of bolt where it would normally be positioned in the slot of the hub.

I've seen a few which are quite wasted here, and also check the threadform to see if the bolt has been tightened beyond its tensile limits.

Applying lubricant to the threadform alters the torque application, and just to muddy the waters a little more, just because a bolt is fastened to the specified torque, it does not follow that it is tight, as bolt tightness is actually measured in tension

When reusing pinch bolts, I apply threadlock to the threaded section, and coppaslip to the plain shank of the bolt

I digress, time for bed methinks

Brian

[drjonts]

Cheers Brian.

My bolt just doesn't 'feel' right. Yes there is WD40 kicking around as I lobbed it all over the area to help it come apart so that will change things.

It is at 60+ lbs ft now and I will leave it be... I am going to get a new one from Mat at DMGRS now.

Thanks my good man...will update when it's been removed. Let's hope the little devil doesn't shear off when removing again eh!

Jonty

[EastPete]

Originally Posted by drjonts

Cheers Brian.

My bolt just doesn't 'feel' right. Yes there is WD40 kicking around as I lobbed it all over the area to help it come apart so that will change things.

It is at 60+ lbs ft now and I will leave it be... I am going to get a new one from Mat at DMGRS now.

Thanks my good man...will update when it's been removed. Let's hope the little devil doesn't shear off when removing again eh!

Jonty

Jonty
I am worried you might have partly stripped the thread on the pinch bolt by reassembling with the hub not fully pushed up onto the stop on the strut - this will mean the gap for the bolt in the 'flange' that goes into the 'pinch gap' of the hub will be in the wrong place and possibly catching the edge of the bolt thread as you screw it in. Get a new pinch bolt and reassemble the strut/hub properly with the hub pushed up to the stop - leaving it as it is could be potentially dangerous.

Cheers

Pete

[drjonts]

Originally Posted by EastPete

Jonty
I am worried you might have partly stripped the thread on the pinch bolt by reassembling with the hub not fully pushed up onto the stop on the strut - this will mean the gap for the bolt in the 'flange' that goes into the 'pinch gap' of the hub will be in the wrong place and possibly catching the edge of the bolt thread as you screw it in. Get a new pinch bolt and reassemble the strut/hub properly with the hub pushed up to the stop - leaving it as it is could be potentially dangerous.

Cheers

Pete

Thanks Pete. That is a possibility my friend - I hadn't thought of that scenario of the edge of the bracket eating the thread. I have ordered a pair of bolts from Mat at DMGRS and hopefully they will arrive soon so that I can whip the old bolt out and have a gander.

When I undid the bolt, it was tight and on reflection I wondered if it was coming off ok as I could only get short movement of my long bar under the wheel arch and it seemed stubborn so i wound back and forth to loosen and avoid the dreaded shearing. It came out OK and looked alright (albeit in the dim light of my torch!).

As I put it back together the bolt went in with just light finger rotation of a socket on it and then once the flange was in contact with the hub clamp face I put on the ratchet and watched the pinch clamp squeeze tight (indicated by a tiny film of WD40 squeezing out of the gab at the top of the clamp as it tightened.

I might pop out later and whip the wheel off for a look in the light.

But better safe than sorry and if I do change the strut it's going to need a new bolt anyway!

Will let you know the outcome.

Jonty

[drjonts]

Afternoon folks.

Well, update on the possible bent strut etc.

Firstly...the bolt.

Had to get a new hub to strut pinch bolt so ordered a pair of those from Mat at DMGRS and was in the process of ordering a set of spring/tyre protectors from Allcarpartsfast (Endon Motors) when I had a bit of a brainwave (which someone may have had before).

Part number on the hub - strut pinch bolt is FC112127PL(a high tensile 10.9 silver finish M12 65mm long bolt with a flanged head and a threadlock glue patch on the thread). Brian, I found a post from 2013 discussing the pinch bolt size and specification...

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/foru...d.php?t=168871

where Steve1966 wrote this:

Originally Posted by Steve1966

Chaps, remember you can work out the length of a standard Rover bolt from the number.

FC=Flange Bolt 10.9 grade
1=Metric
12=M12
12=5x12=60mm
7=type of finish (I think 7 is silver dacromet)
P=glue patch
The final L is a Land Rover addition I believe. MGR bolts did not have 10 characters.

Other key letters

FB=Flange Bolt 8.8 grade
FS= Flange screw 8.8 grade
FT=Flange screw 10.9 grade

For the FS and FT the numbering is the same for metric, size, but for the length it is not multiplied by 5. ie an FS112251 would be a flange screw , metric, M12, 25mm long, and yellow zinc finish.

Makes it a lot easier to find what you want from other sources.

Steve.

So, I applied logic and found that FC112121P is a tie bar/engine/gearbox bolt for Rover 200/400 MGZS...it's a 10.9 bolt of all the right proportions with a flanged head and glue patch but is yellow passivated finish not silver...and is about 30p rather than a £3-£5 (and even then generally unavailable from most places...including Rimmers...but Mat at DMGRS has them as well as some Land Rover places).

I'm guessing the silver finish on the bolt is meant to be more hardy in the environment it is in (mind you...they seem to rust in there pretty well don't they!) but if one is using threadlock and copperslip then all should be fine.

Anyway...used it to replace my original bolt and thanks goodness I did!

Brian you were bang on...pictures attached. Bolt had stretched and and was now undergoing plastic deformation and necking towards failure.

Glad I stopped tightening...knew it didn't feel right!

So, that bit is saved - but the next post will yield what I think is bad news for the strut.

Jonty

[drjonts]

Part 2...

Tapped the hub pinch clamp down the strut and as Pete (EastPete) suggested I tried to look for a kink in the strut tube...and to my eye I think there is (pic attached).

Looks kinked out towards the wheelarch and that would I assume lean the wheel in at the top slightly which is my problem.

What do you reckon folks...am I in for a new strut (and therefore a pair?)

I may take it down for a 4 wheel check and get a measure of the camber...it may be just in spec after the fiddling about.

Jonty