Timing Belt Special Tools (KV6) - Looking to hire.

[Dashiel]

Hmm..

A few of the statements here I think need to be challenged..

This is simply a twin cam engine, with a set of slave cams, driven off the primary cams.
No-one in their right mind would start to ask for a tool for the 1.8. And they don't exist.
The same, exactly, is the case for the V6, except someone came up with the idea of the "tool".

I know Kaiser has strong feelings about the use of the tools.
But in my opinion the statements above do not add up logically.
The first statement is fact, so no problem.
But then you jump to talking about the very different 4 pot engine, as if they and the V6 are one and the same.
And in the third sentence, you jump to the service tools with no logical progression.

IMHO the tools are there to allow the engine to have its timing reset to what came off the production line. Without the ability to reset the front sprockets, you will always have the potential to fit the front cambelt to a position that is slightly 'off'. If you don't mind this, then fine, go ahead and don't use the tools. To me this makes perfect sense.

As for the rear belts, the tools are there to make the job easier. Which again to me makes perfect sense. Again, if you don't want to use the tools, fine, go ahead.

At the end of the day, it's your car, your money and your time.

[Dashiel]

Originally Posted by GadgetBoy

Dashiel>

Your argument doesn't make sense either. Your statement would suggest the sprockets can move relative to the cams in normal usage. As we know this is not the case. I accept that a previous owner could have upset the cam-sprocket alignment but in virtually every case I have experienced on this forum these cars are having their first belt change and therefore the sprocket alignment should be "what came off the production line".

You have missed the point completely. Read what I said - I said it is to ensure that the sprockets go back to the factory setting. You make the assumption that the sprockets are already at factory setting - because? - well you assume that the belts are already there. Can you not tell the difference between the two positions?

And then you go on:

The non-service aid procedure actually allows you to check the front spocket alignment because if they had drifted at all or been assembled incorrectly the rear sprockets wouldn't line up and it's very easy to correct [B]without the service aid.

Well, again you assume that the system of the three belts are all as they should be. But what if they aren't?

And that is why you use the tools - to put the system back as closely as possible to the factory default.

[Dashiel]

Originally Posted by GadgetBoy

I never assume.

But then you go on to assume!:

Shall we start with a no belts situation like, for example, head removal?
....
Done.

Ok.....

[Dashiel]

Originally Posted by GadgetBoy

For the purposes of fairness I shall expand on that a bit.

To correctly fit the rear belts without the completely unnecessary service aid: Remove the rear inlet sprocket, fit belt to exhaust sprocket, turn sprocket to correct position, hold and re-fit rear inlet sprocket using the special tool "cam sprocket bolt" to assist you.

I think you are trying to prove your point by overstating that it is 'completely unnecessary'. What you should say is that the tool allows the mechanic an easy and replicable way of changing the rear belts to the Rover spec.

No one is saying that it is neccessary!

But you keep coming back with the straw man argument that they are 'completely unnecessary'. Well - no one ever said they were necessary!

[Dashiel]

Originally Posted by GadgetBoy

That's not an assumption, it's a real world situation.

This discussion is about the KV6 service tool not grammatical semantics.

Well, but you are adopting the position that everything you say is fact. I am just checking your facts. You can't say in one sentence that you are not making any assumptions, and then in the next go on to make an assumption.

[RN3212]

I think this argument about the necessity for the tools will go on for ever.However anyone who's done the belts without the tools is in a good position to question the need for the tools.

[stuadh]

I'm so sorry I started this.

Suffice to say, as OP, that given my level of experience, ability and understanding, I felt the need to use the "task-specific manipulative items" (I'm not going to say special too...oh damn!). However, on reflection and after some more idle tinkering, while my bike engine drained, I discovered that an alternative method would work. This method was appropriate, given my level of experience, yadda, yadda.

Cheers all!

Stuadh

[kaiser]

I seem to have missed all the excitement! Darn!!

But never let an opportunity go to waste.

So here goes. The tools are a complete waste of time, effort and money. And to make it easy to understand, just look at the 1.8 engine. Here you have no tools and nobody worries about getting it right. A couple of marks that align before, must align after. If so, all is well!

The V6, technically is really no different, because the two cams are slaves of the first. So in essence you are only trying to time a twincam engine with the belt.

The ONLY difference, that matters, technically , is that the sprockets on the V6 can be moved, IF you loosen the front sprocket bolts. If not, you can use absolute traditional methods to time the engine, and it will be EXACTLY back to where it was when you took the belt off in the first place, provided you use the correct belt. Just to show you the stupidity of the argument, it would not even matter if there were more teeth on the belt, provided the slack could be taken up. So only the pitch of the teeth on the belt has any effect on the timing, NOTHING else. (And this is really the key, so read it again)
If you decide to move the sprockets, then you can easily get it on time again. The only thing you have to do is to align the marks on the rear cams so they are in line, with the engine in the safe position. Hold the cams in this position and fix the front sprockets after the cambelt has been tightened.
Engine timed.

Sit down and think it through it really makes sense. And, as originally stated, it is in essence exactly the same as changing a belt on the 1.8. It really is.

But sometimes turning the argument upside down might do the trick, and in order to do that, it would be so nice to know where one thinks you could go wrong on the above. So lets have a look at that. And arguments like "Rover says" and "my neighbours sons third cousin from the left is a mechanic" are not really good arguments.

Ha ha.

[RN3212]

I agree completely with Gadgetboy and Kaiser.The whole idea of TIMING BELT TOOLS has the ability of frightening people away from doing the belts,people who would successfully accomplish the job if the TOOLs were never mentioned.I felt terrified until I grabbed the bull by the horns and did it,and they were the first Timing belts I ever did.

[Dashiel]

Originally Posted by kaiser

If you decide to move the sprockets, then you can easily get it on time again. The only thing you have to do is to align the marks on the rear cams so they are in line, with the engine in the safe position. Hold the cams in this position and fix the front sprockets after the cambelt has been tightened.
Engine timed.

Hang on - you just said above 'hold the cams in this position' - isn't that what one of the timing tools is for? you have just proved the point that tools are useful for that part of the procedure ... You are arguing with yourself.
I thought a lot of the purpose of the tool is because PowerTrain recommended to change the sprocket bolts during the belt change procedure. To do this they provided the tools to allow mechanics to do this in a replicable way.
Your position is essentially that the bolts do not need to be changed.
But people should be aware that the manufacturer of the engine said they should.
Owners of the cars now should make their own minds up whether to follow the manufacturers guidelines.