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Old 1st September 2013, 11:21   #81
HarryM1BYT
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I think Rich summed up the attitude to work of some people very well indeed, well done Rich. It shows some long term unemployed/unemployable see living on the backs of others as a permanent solution for themselves. Its not about how small the proportion of the overall population these people are, nor how little of the overall money they cost us all, its the simple fact that some of us got out of bed and worked hard for our keep.

The guy who refused the job because it would only pay him £40 more than he was getting, should have had all benefits immediately stopped. It is supposed to be a temporary safety net for those who are unfortunately put out of work, not a permanent life style choice. Any job which pays should be not an option to refuse. In fact even if it pays less than benefits, I understand benefits are made up. Why should the rest of us keep them in a life of permanent leisure?

It seems from reading this thread, that they only make life hard for those who have been put out of work recently, these are the only ones who are chased to find a job - the rest, the long term are just left alone to get on with life. That seems very, very wrong to me.

Every ones first duty, ought to be to earn their own keep. There should be no easy options.
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Old 1st September 2013, 14:18   #82
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I slept on the problem and have not been able to come up with a solution. I have at last put my cards on the table with no clear answers. Nothing is set in stone and I am not ready to throw in the towel with this country. Fred what can you bring to the party? If you would not wish to go there, no problemo!
Mornin' Phil,

If I can manage it I'll try to bring a six pack to the party.

1. With regard to this thread and others like it where there is a generalisation that everyone in a particular group of people get tarred with the same brush I would say two things here. Firstly it just isn't true that it is completely the fault of each individual in the group. There are outside forces that create the conditions we live in. Secondly it can be upsetting to a significant number of people who read this type of thing because they feel they are being targeted. I would ask anyone thinking of starting a thread like this to consider whether they really need to or not. If they still want to I would ask they word their post very carefully and back it up with genuine evidence (as opposed to sensational newspaper headlines). I understand people get annoyed, frustrated and even angry about all sorts of things in our society but nothing is ever as simple as it seems. Try to look for reasons why things are how they are as a greater understanding might well mollify your emotions.

2. Never, ever take anything at face value. The world is full of self-interest groups who will tell you anything and everything from genuine facts to absolute bare-faced lies to show they are right. This can range from a one man band with a real bee in his bonnet about something through all aspects of society at large including politics, religion, commerce, ideology and anything else you can think of.

3. A potted history of me which will give you an idea of why I am how I am now.

I'm 62 now and through my life my views have changed from fairly extreme one way to fairly extreme the opposite way at different times. I feel I have now settled somewhere in the middle. At times I've been guilty of doing what I'm now asking people not to do - making uninformed judgements. I've lived through a lot, but not all, of the period since the benefit society we've been talking about started in the 1940's. My early years were unremarkable in a caring and reasonably comfortable family. I left school at 15 with no academic qualifications on a spur of the moment decision. That was 1966 and still a time when jobs were plentiful. I had given no thought whatsoever to what I was going to do. I lived with my parents and knew nothing about the benefits system at all. No-one in my family was in it themselves but I did have friends whose families were, on the dole, in social housing, that sort of thing. I walked into a job straight away and have had a quite wide variety of them in the private and public sectors since then. Other than for a period of nearly nine months in the late 80's I have worked ever since I left school. That nine months showed me how much things had changed in the jobs world.

Looking at my character I would say I am naturally lazy and unambitious. I rarely do today what I can leave to the last minute of another day and don't want to be in a position where I am responsible for telling other people what to do. Contrasting this though, at work I am a bit of a perfectionist. All the jobs I have done have been to the best of my ability but I do have what some have seen as an annoying habit of telling people who have been ambitious and risen to a higher position where they are going wrong.

4. I've never joined or voted for a political party having never been convinced that enough of what they advocate was a good thing. Generally it has been a matter of voting for the one that will make the least mess of things at any given time. Sometimes I haven't voted at all. The biggest problem with politics is that the parties fundamental objective is to be in power. This, inescapably, means they only have a short-term view. Yes, over a series of periods in power they will achieve more of their vision of what things should be like. Unfortunately along the way they have bought their power with ill-thought out policies that have caused more problems than they can solve. As an example, I've talked about the way they've done things to manipulate the unemployment figures giving rise, in my view, to the situation we are now talking about in this thread. I'll just say that politics need a radical overhaul. While ever we swing to and fro our long term future is stuffed.

5. During my time in the private sector I learned that 20% of your customers generated 80% of your income. While that isn't hard and fast and I know there will be exceptions where it doesn't work, it certainly was the case a lot of the time. For those that persist with insisting that everyone who hasn't got a job should go and get one I must repeat this just isn't possible. I will say again, there just aren't enough jobs available for everyone to have one, even assuming they were all qualified and capable of doing those that are available. A fundamental change in all aspects of society would be necessary to even begin to start this process. And as most of this is about the cost of all this it is relevant how much or how little is involved. There is no point in chasing after relative peanuts rather than focusing on areas that involve much greater amounts. This makes sense, even if only to fund the necessary infrastructure to do something about the situation costing us the smaller amount.

It has also been said that benefits should be stopped if someone refuses a job. Other than, perhaps, feeling better because some sort of punishment has been imposed there are consequences that would impact on many more people who are working if this happened. For a start it would be another factor driving down wages. It could very easily lead to people not up to a job actually making things worse for a business - reduced productivity, late and/or incorrect distribution and even theft of stock by those that might well see it as a way of boosting their incomes. There would be additional costs on things like the health service and housing, almost certainly exceeding any money saved. There would, inevitably be a significant increase in crime affecting many people. Burglaries and robberies would go up, with inevitable increases in things like insurance costs. Violent crimes could actually increase the number of people with some dependency on the state.

6 (got there! ). What can we do about it? I have made some observations and suggestions in previous posts, particularly no. 54., but here are some other thoughts.

Given that I believe we lurch along, with no long-term coherent policies, according to whoever is in power at any given time how about we have some sort of charter or constitution? We could set out both rights and obligations for individuals so as to leave no-one in any doubt where they stand. It could do the same for any government so they have to take a longer term view over their short-term ambitions. Many things could and should be taken out of government hands.

Given that it all comes down to money how about we set public spending as a percentage of GDP? It would probably need to be a bracketed figure rather than an absolute, if only to smooth things out a bit. This happens with other things such as foreign aid and qualifying criteria for countries joining the EU. There would, inevitably, have to be a minimum figure set below which it wouldn't be viable and in these circumstances if income (tax) wasn't sufficient to cover the cost we would have to either borrow (to a set level) or increase taxes. Business would also have obligations, such as the minimum wage and paying taxes.

I'll repeat the subject of means testing. We can't afford to be nice about this. If we are to look after the whole of society we should only pay according to need. Throwing money around willy nilly is simply wasteful and we can't afford it.

Will any of this work? Who knows?

Will anything like any of this ever happen? No chance!

But before you lose hope I am working on a much, much cheaper final solution involving the diversion of the marksmen currently involved with the Badger cull ..... only kidding ..... or am I?
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Old 1st September 2013, 21:26   #83
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Good evening Fred

Thanks for writing up your thoughts, for saying a little of your background and for being open. You are not much older than myself. In passing, I add that you write more eloquently I had a good read and will need to have another good read of what you have written. Stopping someones benefits because they refuse to work, would be a retrograde step. I support the arguements you gave. I have met criminals in Africa who do not have a job and who do not receive benefits, as there are no benefits. They are proud of their status earning a living from robbery and crime. True!

Means testing. It is a minefield! I take your point Fred and to some extent it goes on, even though it is resented (Generalisation). I am going to pause here.
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Old 2nd September 2013, 16:52   #84
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You've given yourself away - you must be rich ..... not only can you afford to eat every day but you know about eating 5 a day.
Been away from this Thread a couple of days

Yeah you caught me out.

I earn £6.19Ph for 40 hours a week, after paying my Taxes and N.I Contributions I am left with an amazing £908 for a Four week month or £1078 for a five week month.......Gonna be buying my 40ft Yacht next month, with its own Wine Cellar and Crew made up of 28 Year old Female Supermodels.................
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Old 2nd September 2013, 17:28   #85
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Been away from this Thread a couple of days

Yeah you caught me out.

I earn £6.19Ph for 40 hours a week, after paying my Taxes and N.I Contributions I am left with an amazing £908 for a Four week month or £1078 for a five week month.......Gonna be buying my 40ft Yacht next month, with its own Wine Cellar and Crew made up of 28 Year old Female Supermodels.................
It's good to hear you're only spending your money on essentials.
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Old 2nd September 2013, 17:32   #86
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It's good to hear you're only spending your money on essentials.
YH Was going to add that I only buy 3 Ply Toilet Roll, but didn't want to come across as bragging........
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Old 2nd September 2013, 17:44   #87
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YH Was going to add that I only buy 3 Ply Toilet Roll, but didn't want to come across as bragging........
A very sensible choice ..... you can wash it more times than cheaper thin stuff.
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Old 2nd September 2013, 19:25   #88
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A very sensible choice ..... you can wash it more times than cheaper thin stuff.
very true, I have been listening to Jamie Oliver, he likes to help us poor folk learn how to eat proper by buying cheap food and stuff, also by not having a big TV I can eat Proper too, so I sold my 90" Plasma TV and bought two loaves with the profit I made....
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Old 2nd September 2013, 19:35   #89
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very true, I have been listening to Jamie Oliver, he likes to help us poor folk learn how to eat proper by buying cheap food and stuff, also by not having a big TV I can eat Proper too, so I sold my 90" Plasma TV and bought two loaves with the profit I made....
Some fish would go well with your bread ..... you'll be able to feed a lot of new friends.
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Old 3rd September 2013, 22:54   #90
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Seeing the bigger picture, the benefits system actually works for Britain! (madness, i know!) But you see, where does that £xxx Billions in benefit money go??

It goes straight to British businesses, shops factories, etc, etc - which in turn keeps people in jobs.

Take away the benefits = reduction in UK Spending power = loss of jobs.

Hope that makes sense!
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