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31st August 2013, 06:41 | #51 |
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Apprenticeships do seem like cheap labour to me.
I joined my company at full wages, full contract, no 'agency'. I had some experience, but not a huge amount and because of the nature of the work and regulations no one can do actually testing work (I work in a lab) until trained and signed off as competent anyway. We have an Apprentice who basically is going through the same procedure as I did, with the added stress of doing NVQs and whatnot as well at the same time. He gets paid less than 2/3 of what I was earning 5 years ago when i started, thats about half my current wage. It doesn't seem very fair to me and its not hard work, physically or mentally and its not something that requires years of experience.
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31st August 2013, 12:46 | #52 | ||||||
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Flyer, get your flask and pack-up before you read this ..... you're going to need it.
Not even close. Your figure is less than half the total for last year. It would cover the pensions bill with a little left over or nearly the combined disability and low paid workers benefits. Quote:
The scheme provides reliable motoring to allow disabled people to get about for whatever reason. This might be purely for social or recreational purposes, but it also allows people to get to educational establishments or a place of employment. Quote:
That's still a large sum of money and some of it is, I'm sure, fiddled by those that shouldn't really qualify. However, there is no evidence that it is on a large scale and in the overall scheme of things even if there was no fiddling at all it wouldn't make a significant difference to the tax we pay. --------------------------------- Then consider: Quote:
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_____________________________ I've no doubt a lot of things could be done differently which would both be better and more cost effective. I would very much like that to happen. I fully accept we can't afford to do things the way we have. I watched the 1949 benefits programs. Whilst the circumstances depicted were obviously contrived, they did give a good idea what it was like back then. It should also be remembered that the system was devised at a time of full employment so was bound to be a lot less expensive than now. In the early years we had such a labour shortage we encouraged immigration as well. About the only thing that was universal back then was the health service. The range of medical treatments was a lot smaller then and people didn't live as long. There have been massive increases in treatments and people live a lot longer now. The NHS originally included social care for a lot of people as well, but that has become a costly entity in its own right. Most benefits were dependent on having paid 'contributions' but, of course, it wasn't as simple as that even then. For instance, those that didn't qualify for unemployment benefit could get what was called National Assistance. So even then people who hadn't contributed could get benefits, albeit at a lesser rate. Disabled people were assessed on their capabilities, not cast on the scrap heap and, as I've said before, businesses had to employ them if they could do an advertised job. There was a much greater hands-on involvement by Labour Exchange staff in getting people into jobs, both able-bodied and disabled (many will be pleased to know this included single mums too). That would be prohibitively expensive now if done for everyone but I think might reasonably be done for the younger unemployed. Physically going round to where they live to asses their circumstances and to check thy are doing what they are required to do to find a job is what happened then and could happen now. Despite what anyone thinks I do believe people should be required to do things to help themselves. They were then and they should be now. I just temper this with the fact that the people now being stigmatised were put in the position they now hold, by and large, rather than just believe they all chose their way of life. What some now would see as interference was actually genuine help then. People were expected and required to help themselves but were given real assistance. Not like the system now where hopeless people are shuffled around hopeless systems according to the latest half baked scheme someone has thought up. Young people aren't as expensive to employ as older ones. Mention has been made of the minimum wage with no acknowledgement of the fact that it is different at different ages. It's my belief that the minimum wage is too low. I give you the fact that we spend close to £50 billion a year topping up wages for low paid working people. I fully accept that higher pay can price us out of markets but it is a simple fact that one way or another this cost has to be met. Whether or not it really needs to be as much as it is can be argued, but remember, even poor people spend money and much of our economy depends on what we spend. The measure of GDP includes this shuffling around of money in the economies of each country. There is also the huge Elephant in the room that no-one is allowed to mention and remains pretty much untouchable - means testing. Accepting the fact that we can't afford to go on spending as we have been does, in my view, make means testing a necessity. The only argument I hear against it is that people who need the money very often wouldn't claim it to the detriment of their health and well-being. This is a valid point, but if we go back to 1949 systems we would 'interfere' in these peoples lives as well. There was an example of this with a pensioner in one of the programs and it was just as robust a system as it was for the unemployed. I would rather the state had a right and requirement to make sure everyone was alright rather than throw money at huge sections of the community, for whatever reason, whether they need it or not. I'd be willing to bet (not something I do normally) that we could have a much better country that costs us much less if we lived on these lines. Self interest groups, whether these be employers, unions, ethnicity or gender based groups, along lines of class or heritage or any other basis that favours some over others and including the political parties shouldn't be accepted. Some will, by now, have me down as a Communist but that's not the case. People should be allowed, encouraged and helped to do the best they can. They should be able to keep as much of what they earn as the country can afford, but the country is the People, in my view, and not just a plot of land where the resources, including people, can be exploited. If it's not right that people should be allowed to exploit the system to get something for nothing at the bottom of the pile it's equally right that people at the top shouldn't be allowed to exploit it to get more than they are entitled to. I'm going to leave it at that for now because if Flyer hasn't nodded off he must be in danger of wetting himself. |
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31st August 2013, 13:58 | #53 | |||
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What starts out as seemingly a sensible way of streamlining the pension system at no increased cost ends up being a money saver at the expense of those who paid more in. This will not be a vote winner amongst some which, to my cynical mind, is why they aren't bringing it in till after the next election. Then they do it as quickly as they can, the start of the following tax year, and hope that people have forgotten or got used to it before the next election in 2020. Quote:
The government have used quantitive easing to give money to the finance industry to get them into a healthier financial state and I see no reason why they can't do that in the housing sector. We need significantly more housing stock in the country (whether we have immigrants coming in or not, so don't anybody go there clouding the issue). Money to the construction industry would help finance a building program. At significant levels of building, such as we really need, this would cause a drop in property values. This, of course, would be disastrous, effectively trapping many, many, people in negative equity and having a detrimental affect on the economy. This is, effectively, the bad debt that was such a contribution to the poor state of the economy now. If this bad debt was bought up as necessary by the government with further easing I believe the problem would be nullified. The alternative would be to remain as we are now where the state pays an awful lot of tax-payers money to the private sector to rent largely uncontrolled housing stock. Quote:
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31st August 2013, 14:37 | #54 | |
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In my day, it was expected that you would be paid just a token, rather than a living wage whilst you were taught a trade and gained your qualifications. The modern apprenticeships are just no longer viable on cost grounds.
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31st August 2013, 15:44 | #55 | |
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It would appear that I had over edited my Post (Shouldn't post when Drinking lol) - The Point I was making is that, the Gov't hand in hand with the Media have us all "Believing" in what they want us to believe in, in order for us to segregate ourselves from one group, the British Public, into a bunch of Haters. All the Points made in the Post have come from Newspapers within the last few weeks that I had read. Something I omitted to write in Once we all fall into the trap of believing what is said, written etc, be it about Benefit 'scroungers', Corrupt Gov'ts (One article claimed the Argentinians bought Fighter jets with our Foreign Aid Monies and a 'Corrupt' African President bought a £350 Million Private Plane etc ) then we are on a gentle and slippery slope into Chaos, which is where the Gov't want us to be, so we do not focus on what is really happening in the Country. Hope I made myself clearer that time and shall refrain from trying to write sensible things when my Mind is infused with Alcohol, or at least Alcohol that has not been Watered Down as per the suggested Gov't authorities in order to encourage me not to drink too much
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31st August 2013, 17:33 | #56 | |
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I've done a quick Google about Argentina and aid and can only come up with the usual suspects, Mail, Telegraph, Sun. The essence of what I've had a quick look at though isn't that we are giving Argentina any aid. All I can see is an EU funded donation of aid, of which they have worked out we have contributed £7 million over a period of 6 years. And, of course, their opinion is that the EU shouldn't give them this money because they don't recognise our sovereignty of the Falklands (no doubt reason aplenty for us to leave the EU for some people). But the EU doesn't do anything just on the say so of one country and I doubt the money went directly to the Argentine government. They also talk about an International Monetary Fund loan and because we are a member of that organisation we are guilty of giving them money. They cite the fact that America votes against this because they consider Argentina to be wealthy enough. Note, not because of any territory sovereignty question. They say we should vote against it as well, which draws one to conclude we haven't. I don't know if that's true but maybe there is a reason. Possibly it's that the Argentines are sabre-rattling at the moment to deflect attention from their economic conditions, which are not great at present. That's one reason suggested, so who knows. I found nothing to do with buying jets of any sort, but it was only a quick look I had. However, I'm of the opinion the stories wouldn't really match up to the bare facts of the headlines. And finally ..... you must be rich or on benefits if you can afford to drink alcohol. |
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31st August 2013, 18:22 | #57 | |
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I don't buy Newspapers, the Drivers and Overnight Security staff leave them for me when they are finished. I don't normally read them, but flick through now and again during the Day - I tend mostly to read the sillier stuff in them Not rich and definitely not getting Benefits (Unless you can count my 5 a day and Fibre rich breakfast?)
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31st August 2013, 18:29 | #58 |
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31st August 2013, 19:53 | #59 |
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Be my guest George. Although I warn you that the side effects can make you feel like this for a few months
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31st August 2013, 20:20 | #60 |
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Dont forget we are all in this together, now tell me how the recession and austerity measures have affected those mentioned in the article below
And yes I know its the Daily Mail but nothing in the story is made up as far as i can see http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Club-2013.html
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