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Old 28th August 2013, 17:40   #21
joesoap1
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Originally Posted by joesoap1 View Post
Genuine disabled people have nothing to fear! zen the ATOS officer led them to the shower block...............
and zen we can go after the sheep who are so easily led and take zem behind ze chemical sheds ............

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Old 28th August 2013, 19:02   #22
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Originally Posted by FredSpencer View Post
The fundamental fact that no-one mentions when they start this kind of thread is that there aren't enough jobs in this country for everybody to have one and that's the way the powers that be like it because it keeps wages down.

The actual financial burden of these so called work-shy people to tax payers is miniscule compared to the money not collected from tax avoiders and evaders. If you're going to have a go at someone have a go at them.
Small the amount may be, but but the way to look at it is how many people working and paying their own taxes it takes to keep them not working. Not only do they get all of these benefits, but loss include the benefits and other losses like tax and insurance costs.

If there are jobs enough for east Europeans to find here, there are jobs enough for the locals to find. If there are genuinely not enough jobs to go around, then those jobs there are ought to be time shared out so that everyone gets the chance to develop at least some of a work ethic.

There should be no free licence to just sit at home and do nothing, year in year out. At times in my working career I have had some of these people sent along to work with me on work experience, or they have been forced to into taking a job. The difference between those who have simply changed jobs and those who have never worked is like night and day.

You give one who has never done any work before a task and they give you the 'who me? You expect me to work?' answer, whereas someone else who is used to working would just crack on with the task.

So the problem is not one of simply finding them jobs, but a deeper one of first getting them to understand the basics of what work is.

The last one I had sent out to help me, had got his job based on a pack of lies suggesting he had worked on power stations until just before he had got this job. I also happened to have worked on power stations in the dim and distant past, so I was able to ask questions about what he had done there - he knew nothing about the power station apart from its name, not even how many geny sets they had in the station or how it was fired, in a station he was supposed to have worked in. Was not physically able to climb steps, didn't understand how to do the most basic of tasks even when shown step by step. This was a forty something. So simply forcing them into jobs is never going to work. He was slowing me down so much, I had to send him back in before lunch.

It does make me wonder about modern management having wool so easily pulled over their eyes during interview, as too just accept what a job candidate says without question.

I do feel some what sympathetic towards these long term unemployed people, but simply paying them to sit on their hands is not a solution. There must be something useful they can be taught to do - watching day time TV for the rest of there lives is not the answer.

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Originally Posted by Grumpy1 View Post
So, how do these scroungers get away with it? Or have the authorities given up on them, knowing that most of them are un-employable?
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I would suggest you are correct. Much more pressure will be applied on those with a chance of getting back into work, than those who are a complete waste of space and would never get a job.

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Old 28th August 2013, 20:04   #23
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It is an old debate. I however, have a question. With the slashing of the Benefits Budget (of which about 80% goes to people of pensionable age), how have any of the Taxpayers of this country benefitted? At all? Has food become cheaper? Has fuel lowered in price? Have they reduced Income Tax as a result of their assault on the poorest in society?
At this time I have seen absolutely NO benefit to the wider population of the UK as a result of the Conservatives ideology, barring the setting of the not so well off against the even worse off. Growth is still circling the drain, the national debt has actually increased since the Conservatives slid into power, and the high street continues to die.
There are of course people who take advantage of the situation, I'm sure there always will be. But unless their intention is to turn the country against itself, I'd have to say that what they're doing isn't working for anyone apart from the top 1% of the country. And don't get me started on the creeping privatisation of the NHS.
I'm pretty sure the standard tax code has gone up for the past two years. So in theory we pay less tax.

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Originally Posted by HarryM1BYT View Post
Small the amount may be, but but the way to look at it is how many people working and paying their own taxes it takes to keep them not working. Not only do they get all of these benefits, but loss include the benefits and other losses like tax and insurance costs.

If there are jobs enough for east Europeans to find here, there are jobs enough for the locals to find. If there are genuinely not enough jobs to go around, then those jobs there are ought to be time shared out so that everyone gets the chance to develop at least some of a work ethic.

There should be no free licence to just sit at home and do nothing, year in year out. At times in my working career I have had some of these people sent along to work with me on work experience, or they have been forced to into taking a job. The difference between those who have simply changed jobs and those who have never worked is like night and day.

You give one who has never done any work before a task and they give you the 'who me? You expect me to work?' answer, whereas someone else who is used to working would just crack on with the task.

So the problem is not one of simply finding them jobs, but a deeper one of first getting them to understand the basics of what work is.

The last one I had sent out to help me, had got his job based on a pack of lies suggesting he had worked on power stations until just before he had got this job. I also happened to have worked on power stations in the dim and distant past, so I was able to ask questions about what he had done there - he knew nothing about the power station apart from its name, not even how many geny sets they had in the station or how it was fired, in a station he was supposed to have worked in. Was not physically able to climb steps, didn't understand how to do the most basic of tasks even when shown step by step. This was a forty something. So simply forcing them into jobs is never going to work. He was slowing me down so much, I had to send him back in before lunch.

It does make me wonder about modern management having wool so easily pulled over their eyes during interview, as too just accept what a job candidate says without question.

I do feel some what sympathetic towards these long term unemployed people, but simply paying them to sit on their hands is not a solution. There must be something useful they can be taught to do - watching day time TV for the rest of there lives is not the answer.
Great post harry and I completely agree.
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Last edited by Dragrad; 30th August 2013 at 00:35.. Reason: consecutive posts
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Old 29th August 2013, 00:51   #24
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Firstly cool down folks this was never intended to start WW3; YES we do have `scroungers', those who choose benefits as a lifestyle which we all pay for and we also have those unfortunate people made redundant or jobless through no fault of their own. My lady is from Eastern Europe but has taken cleaning work even though she has 2 masters degrees and taught in Vilnius University prior to coming here. Even she says the British do not have a healthy work ethic. I applaud her tenacity and dignity in earning her minimal wages each week doing what any English person could do.
When raising such issues as this thread, sadly we can only generalise and not take every individual case into account, however we do nevertheless all know some local `scroungers' living the high life at our expense. *I brought one such character to the attention of our local council when he was sub-letting his 3 bed house whilst claiming housing and living with the female next door. (He once worked for me too btw.) Car spraying too whilst claiming.
I totally agree our system has many many other anomalies to be addressed but I simply highlighted one such item. Mike.
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Old 29th August 2013, 10:32   #25
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Originally Posted by 75tourerSE View Post
Too all those who keep ranting the same old same old.... Get the facts correct... Most if not all eastern europeans who are coming here for work are "assisted"........ or share a house, which was Pre arranged by some Work Agency, I do not speak from No Knowledge, I speak from relatives who either employ said people or married one !!

If all of you here who think it is easy, show us how to do it, show us where the jobs are, the housing, the happy life....... infact run for Government if you have the cure from Unemployment........ rather than just being keyboard warriors....I keep hearing how Poor our country is, yet it is one of the richest nations in the world.... we are sooo poor, I see old cars all the time... actually I see more brand new plated cars on the road now than I have in the last 30 years...more people taking holidays abroad, getting drunk every weekend..... BUT hey its their right, they earnt it......right?

It takes poor people to make rich people rich........otherwise what do they have?....

Feel free to Quote anything I have said............I stand by what I say and will die standing by my beliefs....
I don't know what you mean by 'assisted', perhaps you could enlighten us?

The fact is that there are at least some jobs around and some of those jobs are being taken by people travelling over from the far end of the EU and they find it worth while to make the trip or they would not make the trip. All say they work harder and will do anything to earn money, so why are these jobs not being done by our local people - the employers don't want locals, because they don't want to work and they do not work as hard - they lack the work ethic.

I have no issue with people claiming if they genuinely have health issues which prevent them from working. I do have considerable issues with bone idle scroungers. I know of one 'disabled' person who has scrounged for 30 years, goes down to the doctors with an embarrassed grin on his face in a wheel chair. the rest of the time he manages perfectly well on his legs and can walk faster than me.

I have suffered back pain most of my life, some would call it severe, but I have never taken a day of work due to it - I just grin, bear it and just get on with it. It is called a work ethic.

There is plenty of work needing to be done in this country, much of it not even offered as a job as such. The young, fit and able bodied without any work and claiming, should be made to do some of these jobs.
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Old 29th August 2013, 11:04   #26
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As Pete tourer said "walk a mile in their shoes" I suggest people could resign from their jobs and then try to find another, and report back! Empathy and some understanding is probably more helpful.
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Old 29th August 2013, 15:36   #27
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As Pete tourer said "walk a mile in their shoes" I suggest people could resign from their jobs and then try to find another, and report back! Empathy and some understanding is probably more helpful.
sorry to jump on board but whilst your unemployed and living the life of luxury on benefits you should really get rid of your hd tvs other wise people will think your a benefit scrounger, oh yes and try to book your holidays abroad (paid by the tax payer) in between your weekly sign on dates, and remember to tell all your neighbors that you are unemployed because they are paying for your luxury life style, your rover will have to go because they will think its a jag and we all know how much they cost and how could you afford such a luxury car if your on benefits, you are now officially a benefit scrounger because you are on benefits, why are they calling you a benefit scrounger you ask! well because people on forums have read it so it must be true.
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Old 29th August 2013, 15:56   #28
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Originally Posted by joesoap1 View Post
sorry to jump on board but whilst your unemployed and living the life of luxury on benefits you should really get rid of your hd tvs other wise people will think your a benefit scrounger, oh yes and try to book your holidays abroad (paid by the tax payer) in between your weekly sign on dates, and remember to tell all your neighbors that you are unemployed because they are paying for your luxury life style, your rover will have to go because they will think its a jag and we all know how much they cost and how could you afford such a luxury car if your on benefits, you are now officially a benefit scrounger because you are on benefits, why are they calling you a benefit scrounger you ask! well because people on forums have read it so it must be true.
Again, very well said sir!
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Old 29th August 2013, 20:46   #29
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Harry chose to leave out the third part of my post that he quoted but it contained my most important point so I have quoted it myself below:

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Originally Posted by FredSpencer View Post
There are, of course, lots of other factors that need to be taken into account when discussing this subject, but for many people it's easier just to take a headline and rant about it. Unsurprisingly the powers that be also like this because it divides people who really ought be sticking together.
This is the way I look at it. Even if all unemployed people had a job the income to the exchequer wouldn't come anywhere near that lost by tax avoiders and evaders not being made to pay up. The fact that there aren't jobs available for everybody means the amount taken in/saved would be significantly smaller even if all the unemployed were keen to get a job.

Look at the history of our welfare state. It started as a safety net, had strict controls to ensure benefits were only paid according to the rules and was new. Over time it developed in some good ways and some bad ways. I doubt anyone would argue against the NHS principle of treatment for all free at the point of delivery. Or pensions that allow older people to live a reasonable life. Or even helping out people who weren't able to get a job, either because there weren't enough, or they weren't capable of doing one.

Much that was good was part of the welfare state but it's the case, in my view, that it was hijacked from an early date by politicians to hide the real condition of the economy. The unemployment figures have long been a measure of how well a government were doing and manipulating them was a way to make things look better than they were.

Some examples of this manipulation:

The very expansion of the welfare state itself, employing more and more people to do things in the public domain whether they were really appropriate within its original concept.

Shifting increasing numbers onto the scrapheap of disability regardless of whether they could do some sort of work or not. It should be remembered that until 1994 businesses were required to employ a ratio of disabled people. When that was scrapped it naturally had an effect on the unemployment figures and it was easier to switch people onto a disability benefit, effectively pensioning them off, than to keep them unsegregated in the unemployment total. As well as artificially reducing the unemployment figures it looked like the government cared, a double win for their popularity overall.

Moving into the field of education, the school leaving age was raised to 16, every kid then had a right to go to university and 17 and 18 year olds were paid (EMA) to stay at school.

All of these examples and many others came at a cost, of course. This cost wasn't met simply by taxation but by governmental borrowing. All political parties had to borrow to meet the ever increasing cost of running the state machine, although some of the cost was met by selling off state assets (another can of worms).

Some welfare expansion was instigated by ideology, as was the relationship between the state and private sector. At different times we've swung between some sort of socialism or private enterprise which have either accelerated or slowed the state expansion. But expand it has, whether a good thing all the time or not.

One consequence of this system over the time it has been running is the creation of of a group of people who were never likely to get a job, there simply weren't enough. This group were effectively sidelined and, unsurprisingly, their offspring quite naturally fell into the same situation. It is now a multi-generational thing and no-one has the slightest idea how to deal with it. It's not surprising that some people have no motivation, either personal or imposed, to work, or indeed much idea about how to go about getting a job.

I am generalising somewhat as some people do get on in life while others slip the other way depending on personal circumstances. I am, however, firmly of the belief that the situation is the fault of successive goverments.

In the recent financial crisis, not the fault in any way of the public sector, the majority of the private sector or the habitually sidelined people that are targeted in this and other threads, a situation has arisen where the current government are working hard to set people against each other to switch the blame and, I have to say, they are having a high degree of success.

By and large other countries haven't developed a state the way we have. They also aren't as large an economy as we are. We (governments really) have actively built a scrapheap of not much hope but over the same time joined in with Europe and created the conditions where anyone from Europe can come here to work. Given that they don't have the same possibilities of work at home and the conditioning of our welfare state for more than 60 years, it's not surprising their worth ethic is different.

That's not to say they shouldn't be allowed to come here. What we really need is an expanding economy. Successive governments have done nothing much about that. We don't encourage and help innovation and enterpise like a lot of other countries do. We don't manage what we've got, whether public or private, very well. And we. the people, don't do anything to change this. The majority of people just buy the message being peddled and spread it with no real thought.

Despite all their efforts in these times of austerity the government is still borrowing 10 billion a month. If we had no unemployed and there was zero benefit fraud it wouldn't equal a months borrowing. The biggest share, by a long way, goes on pensions, then income support for low paid people in work, then the disabled. The NHS is its own entity but, of course, another biggie.

It's been suggested that everyone should have to do some work. What should that be? You could simply go down the route of undercutting wages which would lead to the majority of peoples' living standards being noticeably reduced. You could make them do unskilled manual work presently done by waged people and increase the unemployment level. Job sharing has been suggested. Does this mean no houshold can have two wage earners while there are unemployed people in the country? Totally unworkable methinks.

You could reduce some services, although this would have to be quite extreme. People who are expensive in the medical system could have their treatment withdrawn. Pensioners on only state pensions generally have other benefits. Shall we remove those and expect families to provide accommodation and care, for instance? Shall we refuse any help for disabled people, even preventing them being born in the first place? Should we just allow people involved in serious accidents to die because their treatment is expensive and they might well need support for the rest of their lives?

We could go down the route of private pensions being compulsory, but incomes are already reducing noticeably and it would be something a lot of people genuinely couldn't afford. We could introduce compulsory health insurance but, again, most people couldn't afford it.

i'd like to hear from the people who have a go at the unemployed what they would be prepared to do to really tackle our problems, given that getting everyone into work just isn't going to happen and the cost of them sitting at home watching daytime TV is miniscule in the overall scheme of things. So come on people give it some real thought and post up your suggestions. Just one rule though, you cannot suggest stopping immigration or suggest repatriation of immigrants already here. That is a whole other matter and a complication we don't need, especially as it's a complete red herring. How about it? Thinking caps on and give us your best suggestions. No prizes though, I'm afraid ..... times are hard
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Old 29th August 2013, 21:07   #30
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Originally Posted by FredSpencer View Post
Harry chose to leave out the third part of my post that he quoted but it contained my most important point so I have quoted it myself below:



This is the way I look at it. Even if all unemployed people had a job the income to the exchequer wouldn't come anywhere near that lost by tax avoiders and evaders not being made to pay up. The fact that there aren't jobs available for everybody means the amount taken in/saved would be significantly smaller even if all the unemployed were keen to get a job.

Look at the history of our welfare state. It started as a safety net, had strict controls to ensure benefits were only paid according to the rules and was new. Over time it developed in some good ways and some bad ways. I doubt anyone would argue against the NHS principle of treatment for all free at the point of delivery. Or pensions that allow older people to live a reasonable life. Or even helping out people who weren't able to get a job, either because there weren't enough, or they weren't capable of doing one.

Much that was good was part of the welfare state but it's the case, in my view, that it was hijacked from an early date by politicians to hide the real condition of the economy. The unemployment figures have long been a measure of how well a government were doing and manipulating them was a way to make things look better than they were.

Some examples of this manipulation:

The very expansion of the welfare state itself, employing more and more people to do things in the public domain whether they were really appropriate within its original concept.

Shifting increasing numbers onto the scrapheap of disability regardless of whether they could do some sort of work or not. It should be remembered that until 1994 businesses were required to employ a ratio of disabled people. When that was scrapped it naturally had an effect on the unemployment figures and it was easier to switch people onto a disability benefit, effectively pensioning them off, than to keep them unsegregated in the unemployment total. As well as artificially reducing the unemployment figures it looked like the government cared, a double win for their popularity overall.

Moving into the field of education, the school leaving age was raised to 16, every kid then had a right to go to university and 17 and 18 year olds were paid (EMA) to stay at school.

All of these examples and many others came at a cost, of course. This cost wasn't met simply by taxation but by governmental borrowing. All political parties had to borrow to meet the ever increasing cost of running the state machine, although some of the cost was met by selling off state assets (another can of worms).

Some welfare expansion was instigated by ideology, as was the relationship between the state and private sector. At different times we've swung between some sort of socialism or private enterprise which have either accelerated or slowed the state expansion. But expand it has, whether a good thing all the time or not.

One consequence of this system over the time it has been running is the creation of of a group of people who were never likely to get a job, there simply weren't enough. This group were effectively sidelined and, unsurprisingly, their offspring quite naturally fell into the same situation. It is now a multi-generational thing and no-one has the slightest idea how to deal with it. It's not surprising that some people have no motivation, either personal or imposed, to work, or indeed much idea about how to go about getting a job.

I am generalising somewhat as some people do get on in life while others slip the other way depending on personal circumstances. I am, however, firmly of the belief that the situation is the fault of successive goverments.

In the recent financial crisis, not the fault in any way of the public sector, the majority of the private sector or the habitually sidelined people that are targeted in this and other threads, a situation has arisen where the current government are working hard to set people against each other to switch the blame and, I have to say, they are having a high degree of success.

By and large other countries haven't developed a state the way we have. They also aren't as large an economy as we are. We (governments really) have actively built a scrapheap of not much hope but over the same time joined in with Europe and created the conditions where anyone from Europe can come here to work. Given that they don't have the same possibilities of work at home and the conditioning of our welfare state for more than 60 years, it's not surprising their worth ethic is different.

That's not to say they shouldn't be allowed to come here. What we really need is an expanding economy. Successive governments have done nothing much about that. We don't encourage and help innovation and enterpise like a lot of other countries do. We don't manage what we've got, whether public or private, very well. And we. the people, don't do anything to change this. The majority of people just buy the message being peddled and spread it with no real thought.

Despite all their efforts in these times of austerity the government is still borrowing 10 billion a month. If we had no unemployed and there was zero benefit fraud it wouldn't equal a months borrowing. The biggest share, by a long way, goes on pensions, then income support for low paid people in work, then the disabled. The NHS is its own entity but, of course, another biggie.

It's been suggested that everyone should have to do some work. What should that be? You could simply go down the route of undercutting wages which would lead to the majority of peoples' living standards being noticeably reduced. You could make them do unskilled manual work presently done by waged people and increase the unemployment level. Job sharing has been suggested. Does this mean no houshold can have two wage earners while there are unemployed people in the country? Totally unworkable methinks.

You could reduce some services, although this would have to be quite extreme. People who are expensive in the medical system could have their treatment withdrawn. Pensioners on only state pensions generally have other benefits. Shall we remove those and expect families to provide accommodation and care, for instance? Shall we refuse any help for disabled people, even preventing them being born in the first place? Should we just allow people involved in serious accidents to die because their treatment is expensive and they might well need support for the rest of their lives?

We could go down the route of private pensions being compulsory, but incomes are already reducing noticeably and it would be something a lot of people genuinely couldn't afford. We could introduce compulsory health insurance but, again, most people couldn't afford it.

i'd like to hear from the people who have a go at the unemployed what they would be prepared to do to really tackle our problems, given that getting everyone into work just isn't going to happen and the cost of them sitting at home watching daytime TV is miniscule in the overall scheme of things. So come on people give it some real thought and post up your suggestions. Just one rule though, you cannot suggest stopping immigration or suggest repatriation of immigrants already here. That is a whole other matter and a complication we don't need, especially as it's a complete red herring. How about it? Thinking caps on and give us your best suggestions. No prizes though, I'm afraid ..... times are hard
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