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Old 28th October 2009, 23:22   #11
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My thoughts too John......"Also Maintenance should be brought under same Laws and controls we operate under."...
A poor soul on the news(I imagine she had lost somebody on that flight) said she hoped resignations were in order..............PRISON should be the order, it would be for us.No doubt things will be stirred up in the media "lessons to be learned etc"..............till the next time.
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Old 29th October 2009, 07:06   #12
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I was considering applying to be an AEOp - hopefully to be on Nimrods rather than the Shackletons - when in then RAF in the late 60's.

Now, consider a parallel with our 75s and ZTs - they need more cosseting and maintenance now that they're getting older and higher mileage than they did when new and still in production. It's obvious this will be the case.

So how old are some Nimrod airframes? And shouldn't the maintenance etc be more now than then?

I've not read the report, only know what's been on the news, but what another indictment of our country in general today.

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Old 29th October 2009, 10:34   #13
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It does seem to me that relentless cuts in the defence budget together with an increasing demand on operational hours in Iraq and Afganistan are the root cause of this issue.

The 'privatisation' of the maintenance of the RAF aircraft put safety into the realm of cost effectiveness. When the aircraft were maintained solely by the RAF safety was a matter of discipline.

25 years ago I served in the RAF and remember how Junior Technicians could and did face charges of negligence for when a error was made in their work.

The rationale behind this was that a mistake by a 'Techy' could lead to loss of life.
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Old 29th October 2009, 10:47   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDotCom View Post
The responsible people for this Malpractice should have to pay.
Also Maintenance should be brought under same Laws and controls we operate under.
Sorry by Ainsworth is worthless,
People died for what?

Oh Yes to save this Government money..........
Agree with that
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Old 29th October 2009, 13:13   #15
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Don't disagree with anything said. Two points from me to consider:

1. the very first error and thus original cause of this tragedy was unsafe (dangerous/flawed/un-professional) systems origination/design in the original Nimrod - hence in the 1960's, so 40+ years ago. This fact speaks loudly that the problems are far from new. So it can't be case of it was all much better in my day because clearly it wasn't.........

2. you can't put a price on safety but.......; military aviation is and always has been a massively expensive industry. I can't hear many people calling for the tax rises that would be required to fund restoration of proper safety systems and procedures, and to restore safety requirements over all else. I don't expect we'll hear such calls at all but without them nothing can change.
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Old 29th October 2009, 16:03   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike View Post

2. you can't put a price on safety but.......; military aviation is and always has been a massively expensive industry. I can't hear many people calling for the tax rises that would be required to fund restoration of proper safety systems and procedures, and to restore safety requirements over all else. I don't expect we'll hear such calls at all but without them nothing can change.
Things could change if we got some politicians who didn't see themselves, above all else, as 'world leaders'. If we only did things we could afford there wouldn't be a problem.
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Old 29th October 2009, 16:09   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredSpencer View Post
Things could change if we got some politicians who didn't see themselves, above all else, as 'world leaders'. If we only did things we could afford there wouldn't be a problem.
........as evidenced by our involvement in Iraq 2 and now Afganistan. The politicians should listen to the BBC Middle East / security correspondent who has suffered from a terrorist attack himself, Frank Gardner.

The connection to the 7/7 bombers was from terrorists in Pakistan, not Afganistan.

Last edited by Rover418275; 29th October 2009 at 17:39.. Reason: additional text
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Old 29th October 2009, 18:02   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike View Post
So it can't be case of it was all much better in my day because clearly it wasn't.........
Ah, but it was. Nothing is ever perfect but at least we were able to encompass such problems in our procedures by virtue of the fact that if it wasn't fit to fly it wouldn't fly.

The Rover 75, for example, has water drainage problems in the plenum, but it is known about and we take such things into account in our maintenance.

The incidents which ought to have highlighted this problem have only occurred in recent years, when the rot had already set in.
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Old 29th October 2009, 18:44   #19
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Quote:
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Ah, but it was. Nothing is ever perfect but at least we were able to encompass such problems in our procedures by virtue of the fact that if it wasn't fit to fly it wouldn't fly..
That is a view, but not that of the report's eminent author, and I will side with him on this one.
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Old 29th October 2009, 19:26   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike View Post
and I will side with him on this one.
As is your right of course. Although I can't accept your interpretation of Haddon-Cave's in such simplistic terms Mike.

I too agree with the report. I have to read it in a dispassionate manner because I am involved in examining the ramifications for basic engineering training but would suggest that the ethos on Nimrod Line Squadron in the early 70s is something which, thirty years on, cannot be gauged.

However, I was there, and believe me when I say that I wouldn't trust my life in an aircraft I had suspicions about.
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