HS2 price increase - Page 2

steve-45 · 20th July 2019, 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev Jules

If the Dartford crossing is computerised, meaning either pay up front, or pay within 24 hours, so why is there mega holdups.

Rev

There always seems to be a queue for the tunnels - a total of 4 lanes, but the bridge which is also 4 lanes rarely seems to have a queue.

Even though both directions have a 50 MPH speed limit, the speed through the tunnels is normally nearer 30 MPH.

Maybe this is what contributes to the normal north bound queues ?

Vossy · 20th July 2019, 18:07

HS2 has to be the biggest waste of money in history, it will end up at over 100 billion (50 billion original estimate) and all for getting a few MP's to London 12 minutes quicker than a current Virgin train, I say current and 12 minutes because Branson reckons that by the time this service is running his trains will also have decreased journey times.

Elephant, white, ever, biggest. Put these in the correct order.

The Dartford Xing has always been a pain and I used it for work for over 30 years, in the end the M40/25/20 was my solution, horrible if you live that way and must use it daily though.

Back to gvt contracts though, they must also budget for the big brown envelopes that are an essential part of any deal

gnu · 20th July 2019, 18:29

Big projects are notoriously difficult to keep on budget. I'm surprised anything to do with infrastructure is achieved nowadays within time and cost with the planning process and lawyers queuing up to get ever inflated compensation for losses or imagined losses. The other issue is projects like HS2 get political momentum which can override expert advice and even common sense.

grivas · 20th July 2019, 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by macafee2

How can this be?
Surly companies bid to do the job for a price?
If the price is allowed to go up and up then there is no incentive to get the price right in the first place.

With so many unemployed and in prison don't we have a workforce?
Chain gangs and working for your unemployment money? We also have those that have to do community service.

Is bidding below the actual price a deliberate ploy, are back handers being taken?

macafee2

A white elephant to serve as a reminder of how our democratically elected politicians waste our hard earned cash, they should all be horse whipped ( oops, that should read all be given knighthoods) for outstanding contribution in public office. If you want to build a railway look to countries who can actually build a railway, and have a proven record of delivering a working system on budget and on time, that means outside the UK. Oh by the way you actually need engineers to build this things not prisoners etc...since we no longer value engineers in the UK preferring instead shopkeepers and bankers then why are people surprised when things go pear-shaped.

jackatesme · 20th July 2019, 19:32

Welsh GOV have just spent 6yrs and £114m on a road that will never be built.

mileshawk56 · 20th July 2019, 19:42

If my memory is right this price overrun was a problem in the Defence industry time and time again equipment was bid for contract won and then the contracted price over ran- now I also sure there was a some Government investigation into this particular problem and they said it would be stopped! No more "sorry boss I broke my screwdiver and a new one cost 100times more Im sure someone will remember it?? Evidently it didn't work as has been said Corruption, plain and simple theft of public money. We are the mugs. Chris S.

75RogP · 21st July 2019, 08:50

I worked in the procurement department of the MOD for a number of years and did not experience any systemic corruption. In fact most government employees went over and above to get the job done. One aspect that did frustrate me was contractors who thought the MOD was a licence to print money. With little competition they seemed to be able to charge whatever they liked but you could always refer overpricing to the police with good evidence.
I’ll give you one example that I considered overcharging (but have many more). It involved the integrated ship display board that was built and spares obtained from only one supplier. The ship had ordered a dimmer switch and a wind direction meter at an estimated cost of £30 for the dimmer switch and £250 for the meter. A fair but I thought probably underpriced estimate knowing the cost of similar items from this supplier. When the quote was received even I was staggered by the cost. The dimmer switch was £20,000 and the meter £27,000!! That was 1/3 the ships annual spare parts budget. I phoned the company and asked them if they had the decimal point in the right place, but they confirmed the price was correct. I then asked them what was so special about the dimmer switch to command that sort of price. They said it was waterproof. I cheekily suggested I could go down B&Q and buy a dimmer switch for £3.50 and put it in a plastic bag. They didn’t see the humour in that but did offer to give me a 5% discount! Needless to say I cancelled the order.

mileshawk56 · 21st July 2019, 10:09

Roger I most likely didn't word my post well, so I hasten to add I wasn't pointing a figure at employees but at contactors and government agencies when suggesting there were practices that would not serve them well if tested in a court of law. The example you give illustrates my view,plain dishonest. Chris S.

KWIL · 21st July 2019, 12:37

Having been one of those contractors, MOD PE was famous for changing its mind, can you do this? they asked, side project devised and costed, answer could be either go ahead or not, eitherway it cost extra money.

One particular contract was varied so much that a very large amount of testing and parts had to be discarded, all for a post contract change of mind!!

At one particular contract progress meeting, discussion went round and round endlessly with MOD talking about changes. When it came to an end, without deciding to change, they did not like it when I pointed out just how much in wasted time (ie salaried time on both sides) it had cost.

PS. The contract for HS2 has not been let, only for parts of it. As the actual project evolves, various parts are only now being properly evaluated.

75RogP · 21st July 2019, 15:53

Ken, you are absolutely correct about the MOD changing its mind during a contract and I sympathise with you on this point. I was constantly astonished that after spending months or years producing a requirement the end user demanded changes at a very late stage sometimes reversing the requirement of a predecessor. On my last project the prime contractor refused any changes after a certain date. Not all contractors are like that and many will try and assist the MOD with changes even at late stage. This leads to delay and associated costs. It is critical to a contract to get the initial requirement correct and ensure the end user is fully committed, not always easy to achieve.

20th July 2019, 18:29	#13
gnu Gets stuck in MG ZT Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Bristol Posts: 695 Thanks: 332 Thanked 164 Times in 133 Posts	Big projects are notoriously difficult to keep on budget. I'm surprised anything to do with infrastructure is achieved nowadays within time and cost with the planning process and lawyers queuing up to get ever inflated compensation for losses or imagined losses. The other issue is projects like HS2 get political momentum which can override expert advice and even common sense. __________________ gnu

20th July 2019, 19:32	#15
jackatesme This is my second home rover 75 saloon.Renault Captur 1.5 diesel. Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: rhymney Posts: 3,661 Thanks: 2,269 Thanked 1,242 Times in 702 Posts	Welsh GOV have just spent 6yrs and £114m on a road that will never be built. __________________ - John B signing out Maralyn was born 9th Sept 2004 14.44.48. 103,597 of 112,381 (75s) 3,021 of 4,744 Connie SE 239 of 1.685 Platinum Gold. "Maralyn": Platinum Blonde,Troublesome,Unpredictable.

21st July 2019, 12:37	#19
KWIL Precise Rover 75 Tourer 2.5KV6 Connoisseur SE Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Fleet Posts: 2,952 Thanks: 630 Thanked 617 Times in 480 Posts	Having been one of those contractors, MOD PE was famous for changing its mind, can you do this? they asked, side project devised and costed, answer could be either go ahead or not, eitherway it cost extra money. One particular contract was varied so much that a very large amount of testing and parts had to be discarded, all for a post contract change of mind!! At one particular contract progress meeting, discussion went round and round endlessly with MOD talking about changes. When it came to an end, without deciding to change, they did not like it when I pointed out just how much in wasted time (ie salaried time on both sides) it had cost. PS. The contract for HS2 has not been let, only for parts of it. As the actual project evolves, various parts are only now being properly evaluated. Last edited by KWIL; 21st July 2019 at 13:12..

20th July 2019, 18:07	#12
Vossy Why? ... MG ZT+ Cdti Auto saloon. Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Blockeswich, South Staffs Posts: 1,548 Thanks: 173 Thanked 483 Times in 330 Posts	HS2 has to be the biggest waste of money in history, it will end up at over 100 billion (50 billion original estimate) and all for getting a few MP's to London 12 minutes quicker than a current Virgin train, I say current and 12 minutes because Branson reckons that by the time this service is running his trains will also have decreased journey times. Elephant, white, ever, biggest. Put these in the correct order. The Dartford Xing has always been a pain and I used it for work for over 30 years, in the end the M40/25/20 was my solution, horrible if you live that way and must use it daily though. Back to gvt contracts though, they must also budget for the big brown envelopes that are an essential part of any deal

20th July 2019, 19:42	#16
mileshawk56 Posted a thing or two MGZT Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Berkshire Posts: 1,281 Thanks: 1,738 Thanked 299 Times in 216 Posts	If my memory is right this price overrun was a problem in the Defence industry time and time again equipment was bid for contract won and then the contracted price over ran- now I also sure there was a some Government investigation into this particular problem and they said it would be stopped! No more "sorry boss I broke my screwdiver and a new one cost 100times more Im sure someone will remember it?? Evidently it didn't work as has been said Corruption, plain and simple theft of public money. We are the mugs. Chris S.

21st July 2019, 08:50	#17
75RogP Regular poster MGB Roadster Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 44 Thanks: 30 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	I worked in the procurement department of the MOD for a number of years and did not experience any systemic corruption. In fact most government employees went over and above to get the job done. One aspect that did frustrate me was contractors who thought the MOD was a licence to print money. With little competition they seemed to be able to charge whatever they liked but you could always refer overpricing to the police with good evidence. I’ll give you one example that I considered overcharging (but have many more). It involved the integrated ship display board that was built and spares obtained from only one supplier. The ship had ordered a dimmer switch and a wind direction meter at an estimated cost of £30 for the dimmer switch and £250 for the meter. A fair but I thought probably underpriced estimate knowing the cost of similar items from this supplier. When the quote was received even I was staggered by the cost. The dimmer switch was £20,000 and the meter £27,000!! That was 1/3 the ships annual spare parts budget. I phoned the company and asked them if they had the decimal point in the right place, but they confirmed the price was correct. I then asked them what was so special about the dimmer switch to command that sort of price. They said it was waterproof. I cheekily suggested I could go down B&Q and buy a dimmer switch for £3.50 and put it in a plastic bag. They didn’t see the humour in that but did offer to give me a 5% discount! Needless to say I cancelled the order.

21st July 2019, 10:09	#18
mileshawk56 Posted a thing or two MGZT Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Berkshire Posts: 1,281 Thanks: 1,738 Thanked 299 Times in 216 Posts	Roger I most likely didn't word my post well, so I hasten to add I wasn't pointing a figure at employees but at contactors and government agencies when suggesting there were practices that would not serve them well if tested in a court of law. The example you give illustrates my view,plain dishonest. Chris S.

21st July 2019, 15:53	#20
75RogP Regular poster MGB Roadster Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 44 Thanks: 30 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	Ken, you are absolutely correct about the MOD changing its mind during a contract and I sympathise with you on this point. I was constantly astonished that after spending months or years producing a requirement the end user demanded changes at a very late stage sometimes reversing the requirement of a predecessor. On my last project the prime contractor refused any changes after a certain date. Not all contractors are like that and many will try and assist the MOD with changes even at late stage. This leads to delay and associated costs. It is critical to a contract to get the initial requirement correct and ensure the end user is fully committed, not always easy to achieve.