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Old 14th May 2019, 22:50   #41
bl52krz
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Originally Posted by AndyN01 View Post
Erm....

How did the driver behind get into a "blind spot" without being seen during the numerous routine mirror checks in the previous minute or so?

But even if they have managed to find a "blind spot" then.......

There are "life saver" checks before committing to any change of position.

My biking background has plenty of "Sorry Mate I didn't See You" incidents so self preservation means an awareness of what's all around. And pulling out in front of another vehicle which then hits you is very painful, possibly life changing and perhaps fatal.

Andy.
I live in an area where drivers take their driving tests. My ‘computer room’ looks out over a grove which learners have to reverse into, and by so doing so, have to drive out of the grove. If you had a few hours I could tell you a few reams of happenings that have taken place from not indicating. Even looking straight at cars approaching these learner drivers, and pulling out in front of them. Having travelled well over 1,000,000 miles in my working life, I learnt one thing that you should do without fail.........indicate every time you have to overtake standing cars/ vehicles, and when turning left or right. Not to do so is in my opinion is asking for trouble.I have seen to many accidents caused by people, who in their wisdom, did not indicate. One was a fatal. I don’t care what these so called ‘instructors ‘ teach the people they are supposed to be teaching how to drive ‘responsibly ‘, a lot of them I would not allow my family to be ‘taught? by them.
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Old 16th May 2019, 06:57   #42
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I totally agree that the standards are woefully inadequate.

The main issue IMHO is the lack of observation closely followed by a lack of ability/capacity whatever you want to call it to then "compute" what they've seen and make a sensible, appropriate and SAFE decision about what to do or not do.

If someone can pull out into oncoming traffic then they are clearly not competent or safe behind the wheel and should either (a) never pass their test or (b) have to have a retest. IMHO the retest should be at IAM or similar standard as they have demonstrated that they are incompetent so need additional training.

The reason the Police drivers are marked down on indicating, or not, is because it reflects a "failure" in their observation which in turn means they don't have the full information which in turn leads to an incomplete picture on which to base their decisions. That incompleteness (is that a word?) may lead to a collision and/or injury.


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Last edited by AndyN01; 16th May 2019 at 07:02..
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Old 16th May 2019, 13:38   #43
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IMHO indicators are on the wrong side of the steering column on a RHD vehicle.

When I learned to drive back in the early 80’s the indicators were on the right hand side of the steering wheel and it was possible to indicate (or cancel) and change gear at the same time but in modern cars you can’t do that if you’re in a RHD car….but you can if you’re in a LHD car…mmm wonder why that is...

I suspect indicators were swopped over to the left from a production cost economy point of view first by European manufacturers and then some time later by the Japanese.

How many times do you see someone pull off a roundabout with the right turn indicator still going! Or not using them at all cos’ they’ve not thought ahead sufficiently and are too busy changing gear.

A friend of mine uses his indicators even when parking in a totally deserted car park….why? Because he’s on auto-pilot and uses his indicators when changing direction regardless of the circumstances. Does that make him a safer driver?

I don’t indicate all the time but that’s not because I’m not aware of my surroundings but actually because I AM aware of my surroundings, probably more so because I also learnt to ride a motorbike and learnt the life saving over the shoulder check.

An example, if I’m in a dedicated left turn lane and the only way I can go is left then I do not need to indicate as my position on the road is indication enough.

How many times do you see people driving down the road with their indicators still flashing cos they’ve not cancelled them! Because they’ve “used” them does that make them a safer driver and more aware of what’s around them?

I was taught to look around and take in the whole picture and act accordingly. Yes there may be people that I’ve not seen and that’s part of the judgement call. If in doubt indicate but indicating just for the sake of it actually suggests you are not aware of your surroundings.

Just because you don’t indicate all the time does not make you an unsafe driver just as those that indicate all the time are not necessarily safer drivers.
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Old 16th May 2019, 14:37   #44
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IMHO indicators are on the wrong side of the steering column on a RHD vehicle.

When I learned to drive back in the early 80’s the indicators were on the right hand side of the steering wheel and it was possible to indicate (or cancel) and change gear at the same time but in modern cars you can’t do that if you’re in a RHD car….but you can if you’re in a LHD car…mmm wonder why that is...

I suspect indicators were swopped over to the left from a production cost economy point of view first by European manufacturers and then some time later by the Japanese.

How many times do you see someone pull off a roundabout with the right turn indicator still going! Or not using them at all cos’ they’ve not thought ahead sufficiently and are too busy changing gear.

A friend of mine uses his indicators even when parking in a totally deserted car park….why? Because he’s on auto-pilot and uses his indicators when changing direction regardless of the circumstances. Does that make him a safer driver?

I don’t indicate all the time but that’s not because I’m not aware of my surroundings but actually because I AM aware of my surroundings, probably more so because I also learnt to ride a motorbike and learnt the life saving over the shoulder check.

An example, if I’m in a dedicated left turn lane and the only way I can go is left then I do not need to indicate as my position on the road is indication enough.

How many times do you see people driving down the road with their indicators still flashing cos they’ve not cancelled them! Because they’ve “used” them does that make them a safer driver and more aware of what’s around them?

I was taught to look around and take in the whole picture and act accordingly. Yes there may be people that I’ve not seen and that’s part of the judgement call. If in doubt indicate but indicating just for the sake of it actually suggests you are not aware of your surroundings.

Just because you don’t indicate all the time does not make you an unsafe driver just as those that indicate all the time are not necessarily safer drivers.
From my experience in cars,British and European cars tended to have the indicator stalk on the left, whilst Japanese were on the right.

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Old 16th May 2019, 15:38   #45
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A friend of mine uses his indicators even when parking in a totally deserted car park….why? Because he’s on auto-pilot and uses his indicators when changing direction regardless of the circumstances. Does that make him a safer driver?

Nothing much wrong with autopilot, providing the autopilot is very well trained. It releases a competent, observant driver to concentrate more on what really matters in the process of driving, I always make good use of my autopilot - I am not usually aware of changing gear, pressing the clutch and the brake, it all happens automagically with no thought from me - except that if any process might need extra attention, like braking on snow or ice, I have the spare capacity to think about it and give it more attention than usual.



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Old 17th May 2019, 06:24   #46
AndyN01
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Slightly off topic but all "learning/training etc." has 4 phases:

Unconscious incompetence - you don't know what you're doing and don't know it's the "wrong" way to do it.

Conscious incompetence - you think/know that what you're doing is the "wrong" way to do it.

Conscious competence - you know you're doing it "right"

Unconscious competence - you're doing it "right" without actively thinking about it.

Lots of phrases for the last one. Perhaps the most used one is "being in the zone."

As an example, in Nigel Mansell's book at the British GP he was reeling off lap record after lap record (his own from the previous lap!) while picking out people in the crowd!

His conscious mind has pretty much nothing to do with "driving" the car and was free to do other things.

Ever seen a trained typist working at 100 words a minute while hold a conversation about last night's telly? Scary. Even more scary when they "self correct" without even looking at the screen or keyboard . Unconscious competence.

Ever driven somewhere and had little or no recollection of how you got to the destination? Was it a "safe" journey? That's your unconscious mind doing the physical act of driving. It's NOT the same as daydreaming behind the wheel as you're still alert and focused on collecting the "Information" all around you.

Andy

Last edited by AndyN01; 17th May 2019 at 06:32..
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:23   #47
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Originally Posted by clf View Post
From my experience in cars,British and European cars tended to have the indicator stalk on the left, whilst Japanese were on the right.

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk
Sitting in a Japanese car at the moment and the indicator stalk is on the left.
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Old 17th May 2019, 10:04   #48
HarryM1BYT
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Originally Posted by AndyN01 View Post
Ever driven somewhere and had little or no recollection of how you got to the destination? Was it a "safe" journey? That's your unconscious mind doing the physical act of driving. It's NOT the same as daydreaming behind the wheel as you're still alert and focused on collecting the "Information" all around you.

Andy

Spot on Andy and the way I see my own decades of very safe incident free driving. If you are well on top of your driving, you can sit back and enjoy the ride. I always enjoy my driving experience.




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Old 17th May 2019, 10:29   #49
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Sitting in a Japanese car at the moment and the indicator stalk is on the left.
My own Japanese cars were from the 80s. Perhaps they have changed.

I am.trying to recall my 190 Merc. If it had the right hand stalk, wipers were built into it too.

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