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Old 19th January 2019, 23:41   #81
macafee2
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Originally Posted by AndyN01 View Post
Surely the vast majority of collisions occur because one human being makes an error of judgement and makes a choice in their actions which has nasty consequences?

Such as, perhaps, pulling out of a junction when there isn't enough space/time to do so and......crunch.

Now, IMHO the focus should surely be on the competence of the driver to be in control of a vehicle. If they are unable to judge the speed of approaching traffic and work out if the vehicle they are driving is capable of pulling out safely without any other road user changing their speed or course then, maybe, they shouldn't be in control of any vehicle on the public road?

Interestingly the knee jerk reaction seems to be a discussion about reducing the speed limit on the major road. I'm going for a person with a flag walking in front of every vehicle . Might reduce the unemployment figures also .

I've posted before that perhaps one idea would be that if you are involved in a collision you have to take a retest. No collisions, no re-test; lots of collisions, lots of re-tests costing lots of ££££'s.

Oh, and an inability to drive at the speed limit when & where appropriate is a fail. So the motorists who are unable to maintain a reasonable speed causing queues and frustration leading to "rash" overtaking decisions are also deemed not fit to be in control of a vehicle.

The issues around what sort of vehicle is the "best" to have collision in is a bit cart before horse to me. How about 30+ tonnes of truck? Apparently they can stop in about a couple of car lengths at 60mph if what I regularly see on motorways is anything to go by. Not too sure how a 4x4 copes with that?

Many years ago one of the motorcycle magazines did a test with riders wearing a helmet ('cus it's the law) & swimming trunks. The idea was that the rider felt (and indeed was) much more vulnerable so they would alter their riding "style" accordingly.

I seem to remember it worked to a degree. The riders were much more "defensive" in their style but were not a huge degree slower overall.

Lots of factors, lots of choice, apparently no simple solutions.

Looking forward to more discussion.

Andy.


Driving at the speed limit can still end up with a queue behind or rash over taking as others may well speed
You also have to take into account most roads do not have a minimum speed limit and things like tractors don't normally travel at 60 on a road where 60 is a maximum speed limit. Also on some roads there s a different speed limit for a solo car and a car towing plus you need to take into account manoeuvrability and stopping distance and so some vehicles may travel slower to take this into account. What about car that are 70 or more years old, they may also travel slowly compared to a modern car

A blanket statement of " So the motorists who are unable to maintain a reasonable speed causing queues and frustration leading to "rash" overtaking decisions are also deemed not fit to be in control of a vehicle" is ignoring so much.

perhaps those that carry out a rash overtake are unfit???

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Old 20th January 2019, 06:20   #82
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In temperatures of 35-42 degrees in the African desert, it has it's advantages, the tar melts at times. We used to refill accumulators and could not use the last of the bottles, many garages in Africa (Tiger wheel and tyre Phil ?) do supply it free as well.
Tiger Wheel? Yes we have a branch in Somerset West in South Africa. I will bear that in mind Craig when we are next visiting. Thank you for the heads up. I was talking with Jessica about the extremes of heat in the bush not recorded by official weather stations. The hottest I have ever seen is 52C in Tsavo, thank goodness for the A/C. Here is a shot of our Mazda 4x4 on the family farm in ZA overlooking Erinvale and the Hottentots on the horizon .....

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Old 20th January 2019, 06:39   #83
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mrs monty drives a disco 3, 18 month ago she was rear ended whilst parked at the back of a traffic que, police said the other car had telematics fitted and he didn't get on the brakes before hitting the car, 3.5k to repair the car, bent rear chasis rail, tow bar bent bumper destroyed and push the car forward into the car in front, thankfully she only had whiplash.

now to the four lads in the car, driver and front seat passenger left there head imprints in the windscreen and the 2 in the back hit them from behind so all off to hospital by ambulance, police said none of them were wearing seatbelts and they said if she was a smaller car her injuries could of been a lot worse.

my opinion is, a large heavy car is much safer for the occupants in a colision
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Old 20th January 2019, 06:56   #84
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Hey Phil, you say you have a Trooper in your fleet of 4x4's, would that be a first or second generation? My first 4x4 was a first gen petrol model, never let me down not once.

Looking back now she was very old and basic, but she was a beast. I understand these Troopers, Land Cruisers, Pajero's etc are very popular over in your neck of the woods, many are still in good condition, is that true?

The Trooper I use is a 3.0 Tdi, 2002 LWB with A/C, airbags and it’s 4x4 on the fly. There is a button on the dash for auto 4x4 and there is another gear stick for manual 4x4. It’s only done 60,000 miles, just forked out on a full service, had to replace the rear springs, shocks and stabiliser bushes as they were shot, but needs must. The national speed limit in Kenya for all 4x4’s is 100 kph and 50 kph in the city. “General tyres” on your Trooper Wes. Oh very nice and tough

My brother-in-law had a Trooper Mark 1 shipped out from the UK when he left the British Army. He drives all of his cars fast and furious, they lead a tough life. He now drives a used Range Rover V8 Diesel, which he calls “The Beast”.

Wes, you asked what is popular here? The safari tour companies like to use the LWB Land Cruisers. The county set - it’s Land Rovers (only teasing) and the yuppies, it’s the latest Hummers’, Evoques, Prados, Black GM 4x4s with the smoked out Windows - the Diplomat community.

The Kenyan police drive Nissan 4x4’s and Land Cruisers for off road.

The British Army in Kenya - Land Rovers!

Last edited by Gate Keeper; 20th January 2019 at 06:59..
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Old 20th January 2019, 07:01   #85
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As regards tyres for off road use I would say tubed every time. My old alloy wheels on the RR were for a tubed tyre and whilst you could have a tubeless tyre fitted you had to have a tube in it.

Tubeless tyres are IMO a liability when off-roading because if you break the bead you have a flat tyre out in the middle of no-where.

With a tubed tyre you can lower the tyre pressures to provide more grip over rough terrain then simply pump them up again with a foot pump or what I preferred- an electric pump that just plugged into the cigarette socket.
Thank you Clive for that, all noted. Thank you very much.
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Old 20th January 2019, 08:44   #86
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in my opinion these so called 4x4s SUVs etc have no place on our busy congested and not fit for purpose roads, drivers choosing to have these, clearly for the no other reason than to compensate for other deficiencies should be taxed heavily, and be able to pass a special driving test, in any case ALL drivers should have to take a mandatory retest every 5 years for their health and safety, and not forgetting training purposes. The driving test in the UK is far too simple now, I mean no motorway training whatever, that is ridiculous.!!
Thanks for your open minded considered post...
I drive 4x4s because I want to, I like them, their driving position and their towing ability for our caravan, I am taxed heavily both road tax and everytime I fill it up at the pumps. Rear end collision in my discovery, needed a replacement rear step, £120, driver of offending Ford Mondeo, needed a new Mondeo front end!
And some of those kerbs outside the kids school are really high!
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Old 20th January 2019, 09:19   #87
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Driving at the speed limit can still end up with a queue behind or rash over taking as others may well speed
You also have to take into account most roads do not have a minimum speed limit and things like tractors don't normally travel at 60 on a road where 60 is a maximum speed limit. Also on some roads there s a different speed limit for a solo car and a car towing plus you need to take into account manoeuvrability and stopping distance and so some vehicles may travel slower to take this into account. What about car that are 70 or more years old, they may also travel slowly compared to a modern car

A blanket statement of " So the motorists who are unable to maintain a reasonable speed causing queues and frustration leading to "rash" overtaking decisions are also deemed not fit to be in control of a vehicle" is ignoring so much.

perhaps those that carry out a rash overtake are unfit???

macafee2

Thanks for your thoughts, it's appreciated and adds to my considerations and this discussion.

If there is a queue at the speed limit perhaps the limit is too slow? I'm not talking about in built up areas but we have an increasing number of "blanket" 50mph limits where the road itself could easily be driven at three figures - no turnings, no junctions, nothing where another vehicle could "pop out" onto the road and visibility well into the hundreds of metres. What's the reason for the 50mph limit? It's illogical and IMHO turns the whole issue of speed limits into a farce.

I'd be very happy to see much reduced limits when it's appropriate but please stop this "the answer to everything is to lower the speed limit" policy. It creates a "cry wolf" mindset so when there is a real problem experience tells motorists it's a non existent problem and consequently the risk is vastly increased.

How about creating queues on motorways when there's a random reduction in limit for no reason whatsoever? This always seems to produce bunching which, lo & behold, as soon as the speed limit increases the bunching disappears. Increasing the limit removes the queue....

You are absolutely correct that there are different limits for different types of vehicle.
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

Yes, tractors, vehicles with trailers and old vehicles etc. travel more slowly and that is, of course, perfectly acceptable because that's the capability/design/regulations for that vehicle.

I was making the point in relation to "motorists" as humans and their competence.

Looking at the .GOV website as far as I can see a car used for the test must be capable of reaching at least 62mph. The inference is surely that the driver must be capable and competent at the National Speed Limit for that vehicle (60mph)?

I'm sure many of us know of "drivers" who are incapable of maintaining a reasonable speed. They are, IMHO, not fit to drive as they do not have the skills to make them competent. The very old joke about never having had an accident but seen hundreds springs to mind.

I completely agree that those who carry out unsafe, rash overtakes are unfit.

Perhaps a question is what leads them to make that choice? Selfishness? A me, me, me "I can put one over on you" attitude which seems to be acceptable and indeed promoted as an excellent way to behave? A simple lack of understanding about the risks & dangers? A belief that ABS, air bags and whatever other gizmos their car has will either stop any collision from happening in the first place or they'll get out of it perfectly OK whatever happens (they are so wrong!). Chasing the next deal or pressure from whoever to get to the next meeting or whatever? I'm sure there's many more.

I'm a great believer in personal choice but with the knowledge & understanding that choices have consequences and accepting those is the price to pay for having that personal choice in the first place.

Where do we set the lines of competence/danger/risk etc.

All the best.

Andy.

Last edited by AndyN01; 20th January 2019 at 09:30..
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Old 20th January 2019, 09:58   #88
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Thanks for your thoughts, it's appreciated and adds to my considerations and this discussion.

If there is a queue at the speed limit perhaps the limit is too slow? I'm not talking about in built up areas but we have an increasing number of "blanket" 50mph limits where the road itself could easily be driven at three figures - no turnings, no junctions, nothing where another vehicle could "pop out" onto the road and visibility well into the hundreds of metres. What's the reason for the 50mph limit? It's illogical and IMHO turns the whole issue of speed limits into a farce.

I'd be very happy to see much reduced limits when it's appropriate but please stop this "the answer to everything is to lower the speed limit" policy. It creates a "cry wolf" mindset so when there is a real problem experience tells motorists it's a non existent problem and consequently the risk is vastly increased.

How about creating queues on motorways when there's a random reduction in limit for no reason whatsoever? This always seems to produce bunching which, lo & behold, as soon as the speed limit increases the bunching disappears. Increasing the limit removes the queue....

You are absolutely correct that there are different limits for different types of vehicle.
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

Yes, tractors, vehicles with trailers and old vehicles etc. travel more slowly and that is, of course, perfectly acceptable because that's the capability/design/regulations for that vehicle.

I was making the point in relation to "motorists" as humans and their competence.

Looking at the .GOV website as far as I can see a car used for the test must be capable of reaching at least 62mph. The inference is surely that the driver must be capable and competent at the National Speed Limit for that vehicle (60mph)?

I'm sure many of us know of "drivers" who are incapable of maintaining a reasonable speed. They are, IMHO, not fit to drive as they do not have the skills to make them competent. The very old joke about never having had an accident but seen hundreds springs to mind.

I completely agree that those who carry out unsafe, rash overtakes are unfit.

Perhaps a question is what leads them to make that choice? Selfishness? A me, me, me "I can put one over on you" attitude which seems to be acceptable and indeed promoted as an excellent way to behave? A simple lack of understanding about the risks & dangers? A belief that ABS, air bags and whatever other gizmos their car has will either stop any collision from happening in the first place or they'll get out of it perfectly OK whatever happens (they are so wrong!). Chasing the next deal or pressure from whoever to get to the next meeting or whatever? I'm sure there's many more.

I'm a great believer in personal choice but with the knowledge & understanding that choices have consequences and accepting those is the price to pay for having that personal choice in the first place.

Where do we set the lines of competence/danger/risk etc.

All the best.

Andy.
Not far from the M40 on the A34 there is a section of 50mph. The only reasons I can think of is noise or pollution so speed limits may not always be about "safety". What about tight corners and roundabouts, these can be in 60mph limits but the limit is too fast for some vehicles to negotiate these hazards and so reducing the limit may take away the temptation to drive at the limit and for the vehicle that does not negotiate the hazard to crash

As for removing speed limits to avoid queues, OMG! So mr sporty is driving at 130 in lane 2, mr slow is doing 55 in lane, 1 mr a bit quicker in lane one decides to move to lane 2 doing 65 mph... can you see where I'm going with this? Reason queues "disappear" on motorways that are free flowing when speed limit increases is because some drive below the limit, some at the limit and some over it.

20mph limit outside schools may cause a queue, is 20mph too slow? perhaps the driver behind has not slowed down to the new lower limit causing bunching. I've not suggested lowering speed limits is the answer to everything.

I feel your "argument" is full of holes and you have not given it sufficient thought.

Only a fool breaks the two second rule. 2 seconds needs to increase in the wet, with heavy loads, when towing a medium to heavy load.

oh, and mobile phones hands free or otherwise should not be used while driving unless an emergency.

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Old 20th January 2019, 13:00   #89
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Its quite funny really, after all these years the 4x4 still gets a bad reputation by the enemy, and now the SUV has simply made things worst by creating more discrimination.

I bought my first 4x4 20 years ago, and the same discrimination was around back then. Nothing has changed except the technology that is used to make these vehicles, plus the ever increasing safety standards that aid to the design in the first place.

We have all seen the common small car become bigger over the years, small cars are no longer small, and that's part of the problem. My old 1992 Isuzu/Opel/Vauxhall Frontera was huge back in the day, but in today's standards would be considered quite small, just a large estate car.

Today's 4x4's and SUV's cant even fit in some parking spaces due to their size, this is a safety standard manufacturing design problem where technology is to blame. The enemy needs to keep up with what is going on around them, we don't live in the dark ages any more do we.

Technology rules.

I remember my wife wanting the Frontera due to it being more modern looking than the Trooper, we then went of to a Nissan/Ford Maverick after that.

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Old 20th January 2019, 13:42   #90
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Thanks for your open minded considered post...
I drive 4x4s because I want to, I like them, their driving position and their towing ability for our caravan, I am taxed heavily both road tax and everytime I fill it up at the pumps. Rear end collision in my discovery, needed a replacement rear step, £120, driver of offending Ford Mondeo, needed a new Mondeo front end!
And some of those kerbs outside the kids school are really high!
Nicely put Sir!!!!
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