Speakers

gritbox · 25th September 2014, 10:18

ok, so ive done some research here

am i right in saying that the important thing re speakers is the frequency?

ie higher the range, the better at producing low and high notes?

so, with that in mind, are these a pair of belters?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2612945384...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

whereas these are worse?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1608722430...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

and these are even worse?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3509000174...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

either way, i take it ill need an amp to run them?

coolcat · 25th September 2014, 11:42

Hi Frankie,

Both low and high frequencies effect the sound but specification is not the only thing.
All our ears are different as are our idea of what sounds good and what does not.
Both Mb Quartz and Infinity both make great speakers and all of those would be an improvement on the 'stock oem' speakers in our cars.
All of them will also work straight from the head unit but would benefit still further from a separate amplifier

gritbox · 25th September 2014, 11:57

thank you sir

out of those 3 there, would the expensive mb ones be worth as much more as they are over the other 2?

coolcat · 25th September 2014, 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by gritbox

thank you sir

out of those 3 there, would the expensive mb ones be worth as much more as they are over the other 2?

Hard to say as I haven't heard them all to compare.
To be honest around the £100 price range I would as I have said before recommend the Hertz components.
Going up in price then my choice would be Focal or Rainbow speakers

Just remember though, these are all opinions and just that, also speakers that sound good in one car door may not load well into another brands door

gritbox · 1st October 2014, 12:24

ok so money wise, if i go with these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3509000174...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

ill still have a bit to play with re an amp and possible sub

so...what am i looking for in an amp?

if i power the front 2 from the amp, am i really better firing the back 2 through it too, or is that not as important?

sub wise too, if i want that extra bass...many channels in total is that i need from the amp for 4 speakers and a sub?

gritbox · 2nd October 2014, 09:13

ok questions are...!!!

i wanna future proof, so im going to get a 5 channel amp 1 per speaker and 1 for a sub

question is....can the rms on the amp, be higher than the speaker rms?

do i need to worry about ohms on the amp matching ohms on the speaker?

and lastly...do i physically need to wire the speakers into the amp, or do the speakers stay connected to head unit but head unit connects to the amp?

thanks

kourgath · 2nd October 2014, 19:30

OK sorry about the long post but...

RMS is a measure of 'real' power or as we used to say when winding up Dixons sales droids 'kettle boiling power'. If your amp can shove out more than the speakers then you could end up destroying the speakers. Like a good many things power on it's own isn't a good measure. I know of 100w amps running 300w speakers and throwing a cone out. Often a bigger wattage from the amp is suggested than the speakers as the "overdrive rather than underdrive" brigade don't always understand what they are talking about but generally you want the amp better than the speakers. [Those destroyed speakers were Rogers Studio 1's and were driven by a lovely set of £2000 each valve-amped mono-bocks running off huge power supply systems and driven very hard with the 1812 Overture cannons going off...]

The measure of THD (total harmonic distortion) is useful as an amp should be measured across a range and produce a similar amount of power across the entire sound frequency range with little distortion. An example would be a -3db (power range and we can hear a 3dB change) from 20Hz-20kHz at 0.1%THD into 4 Ohms. This would be a good amp. http://www.carstereo.com/rayfes/ampspec.cfm

For cars 4 Ohms is the expected impedance for both speakers and the amp power. Some talk of bridging amps and 2 ohms etc but I'd suggest starting sensibly (if you want some good reading http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm or specifically car audio http://www.carstereo.com/help/ )

Most external amps will have to be wired in-between the head-unit and the speakers these need speaker level inputs. Some can hook into the head-unit wiring using the ISO connectors to tap the normal head-unit outputs. If you have Harmony, Symphony or most of the single-DIN head-units Rover fitted then this is the way. Some aftermarket single-DIN head-units have line-outs which make things simpler. If you have the High-Line system (screen jobbie) then the amp is separate and can be easily upgraded.

So in direct answer to your questions

the Infinity speakers are nice (I have an earlier set of these lying around that may well go into my 75 once all the other things get done).

An amp should have a good output with low distortion over a wide frequency range (beware +/- 6dB quotes or those that don't bother), not too powerful eg 40w RMS per channel into 4 ohms or 100w to start (Rover Symphony supposedly has 20w but that sounds quite optimistic if you actually want a good quality of sound as well! Didn't know you could get 5 channel amps. I'd probably go for a high quality 4 channel and a separate one for the sub (which can be 300w etc as a sub needs lots of power to move the large cone to give the bass kick).

Keep to 4 ohms for both amp and speakers (the Infinity speakers present 4 ohms to the amp via the cross-over -keeping it simple).

Yes you would need to wire it in but you may be able to get a suitable kit that will allow you to take the speaker-level outputs from your head-unit from the ISO connectors behind the dash and cut in so that the return from the amp goes into the speaker ISO leads in a sort of Y adapter. Can't find one on ebay...

In other words

Currently: Head-unit ->ISO->Speakers

Upgrade: Head-unit ->ISO->AMP->ISO->Speakers

Don't skimp on the wiring for the amp power supply for best results

Discaimer: I was an Electronics Engineer who grew up in and out of Sound Studios with my Father, but car hi-fi is not my area of expertise - Coolcat is

coolcat · 2nd October 2014, 19:37

Very nice write up Sir

I'm firstly an audio engineer as well, secondly a car audio bod

In the case of Frankie, he has an aftermarket double din head unit that has line level rca phono outputs for the front/rear and sub.

So he can run the amp at line level inputs and can run speaker wires back from the amp into the iso speaker connector in the car loom.
This will save the major upheaval of running new cabling through the doors

kourgath · 2nd October 2014, 20:14

Cheers mate,

Dad was a Sound Engineer for various TV companies through the years and eventually went solo with a studio. When that folded I managed to get the Rogers Studio 1 which are a 2db matched pair that the Boss hates taking up a huge amount of room... I remember the 1812 Overture bit but as I was in the sound booth I didn't get the full whack - though the face on the two guys in the suite was a picture! (and a cone hanging out of the cabinet - those woofers were custom made jobs out of bextrene or such).

Line-level outs do make life so much simpler. I do have an old Pioneer setup here (it had Dolphins on it's screen which kept the kids happy for ages) which has line-level o/p as well as a mic so that it can increase the volume if needed. When I had it in the Landie it really did need that mic! Also I have a Pioneer Carrozzeria 4 channel amp which I think is 30wRMSx4 into 4 ohms with a 3db down of 20-20k at 0.08 %THD. I also have a Becker Traffic Pro (from a Freelander) as well as suitable CD changer (2 actually) and the upgrade cable as I was thinking of getting a Freeloader at one point...

My Symphony isn't all that great and as the changer and steering wheel controls have stopped working I'm onto investigating the K-bus and possibly playing with the Riesler interface to the I/K for fun - once I've finished building a Megashift for a mates LR with the 5 speed JATCO box and 2.5v6 from a 75....

Cheers
Gavin

gritbox · 3rd October 2014, 08:28

team, lovely write up

and interesting that you suggest max of 50w rms per channel

also interesting, is your mention of 1812 Overture...i love this kind of music and for that reason, id happily sacrifice ear bursting volume for crystal clarity

ive decided, first thing im going to do is get better speakers and try them on their own, see what i think of the sound

so, going by what youve just said, i think these speakers are what il go for:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HERTZ-ESK1...item4855a409df

100w rms, 4 ohms, freq of 60 - 23 khz and db rating of 93.5, tweeter 25mm which is same as existing if im not mistaken

jeff, can you confirm the power of the output from the amp in the dd unit?

if i just plug these right in, will it sound bad from the underpowered amp in unit?

last question for now also...am i really better changing the speaker wire over? is it possible to just disconnect the existing wire and trace new, thicker stuff along an easier route?

25th September 2014, 10:18	#1
gritbox Loves to post MG ZT 190 Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Glasgow Posts: 497 Thanks: 25 Thanked 36 Times in 24 Posts	Speakers ok, so ive done some research here am i right in saying that the important thing re speakers is the frequency? ie higher the range, the better at producing low and high notes? so, with that in mind, are these a pair of belters? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2612945384...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT whereas these are worse? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1608722430...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT and these are even worse? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3509000174...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT either way, i take it ill need an amp to run them?

25th September 2014, 11:42	#2
coolcat This is my second home Audi Q3 TDI S-Line Quattro Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Clacton On Sea/On the boat somewhere Posts: 51,210 Thanks: 9,890 Thanked 12,235 Times in 8,232 Posts	Hi Frankie, Both low and high frequencies effect the sound but specification is not the only thing. All our ears are different as are our idea of what sounds good and what does not. Both Mb Quartz and Infinity both make great speakers and all of those would be an improvement on the 'stock oem' speakers in our cars. All of them will also work straight from the head unit but would benefit still further from a separate amplifier __________________ Jeff.

2nd October 2014, 19:37	#8
coolcat This is my second home Audi Q3 TDI S-Line Quattro Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Clacton On Sea/On the boat somewhere Posts: 51,210 Thanks: 9,890 Thanked 12,235 Times in 8,232 Posts	Very nice write up Sir I'm firstly an audio engineer as well, secondly a car audio bod In the case of Frankie, he has an aftermarket double din head unit that has line level rca phono outputs for the front/rear and sub. So he can run the amp at line level inputs and can run speaker wires back from the amp into the iso speaker connector in the car loom. This will save the major upheaval of running new cabling through the doors __________________ Jeff.

25th September 2014, 11:57	#3
gritbox Loves to post MG ZT 190 Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Glasgow Posts: 497 Thanks: 25 Thanked 36 Times in 24 Posts	thank you sir out of those 3 there, would the expensive mb ones be worth as much more as they are over the other 2?

1st October 2014, 12:24	#5
gritbox Loves to post MG ZT 190 Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Glasgow Posts: 497 Thanks: 25 Thanked 36 Times in 24 Posts	ok so money wise, if i go with these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3509000174...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT ill still have a bit to play with re an amp and possible sub so...what am i looking for in an amp? if i power the front 2 from the amp, am i really better firing the back 2 through it too, or is that not as important? sub wise too, if i want that extra bass...many channels in total is that i need from the amp for 4 speakers and a sub?

2nd October 2014, 09:13	#6
gritbox Loves to post MG ZT 190 Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Glasgow Posts: 497 Thanks: 25 Thanked 36 Times in 24 Posts	ok questions are...!!! i wanna future proof, so im going to get a 5 channel amp 1 per speaker and 1 for a sub question is....can the rms on the amp, be higher than the speaker rms? do i need to worry about ohms on the amp matching ohms on the speaker? and lastly...do i physically need to wire the speakers into the amp, or do the speakers stay connected to head unit but head unit connects to the amp? thanks

2nd October 2014, 19:30	#7
kourgath Avid contributor Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: On the Border between Cornwall and Devon, near Tavistock Posts: 153 Thanks: 68 Thanked 22 Times in 21 Posts	OK sorry about the long post but... RMS is a measure of 'real' power or as we used to say when winding up Dixons sales droids 'kettle boiling power'. If your amp can shove out more than the speakers then you could end up destroying the speakers. Like a good many things power on it's own isn't a good measure. I know of 100w amps running 300w speakers and throwing a cone out. Often a bigger wattage from the amp is suggested than the speakers as the "overdrive rather than underdrive" brigade don't always understand what they are talking about but generally you want the amp better than the speakers. [Those destroyed speakers were Rogers Studio 1's and were driven by a lovely set of £2000 each valve-amped mono-bocks running off huge power supply systems and driven very hard with the 1812 Overture cannons going off...] The measure of THD (total harmonic distortion) is useful as an amp should be measured across a range and produce a similar amount of power across the entire sound frequency range with little distortion. An example would be a -3db (power range and we can hear a 3dB change) from 20Hz-20kHz at 0.1%THD into 4 Ohms. This would be a good amp. http://www.carstereo.com/rayfes/ampspec.cfm For cars 4 Ohms is the expected impedance for both speakers and the amp power. Some talk of bridging amps and 2 ohms etc but I'd suggest starting sensibly (if you want some good reading http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm or specifically car audio http://www.carstereo.com/help/ ) Most external amps will have to be wired in-between the head-unit and the speakers these need speaker level inputs. Some can hook into the head-unit wiring using the ISO connectors to tap the normal head-unit outputs. If you have Harmony, Symphony or most of the single-DIN head-units Rover fitted then this is the way. Some aftermarket single-DIN head-units have line-outs which make things simpler. If you have the High-Line system (screen jobbie) then the amp is separate and can be easily upgraded. So in direct answer to your questions the Infinity speakers are nice (I have an earlier set of these lying around that may well go into my 75 once all the other things get done). An amp should have a good output with low distortion over a wide frequency range (beware +/- 6dB quotes or those that don't bother), not too powerful eg 40w RMS per channel into 4 ohms or 100w to start (Rover Symphony supposedly has 20w but that sounds quite optimistic if you actually want a good quality of sound as well! Didn't know you could get 5 channel amps. I'd probably go for a high quality 4 channel and a separate one for the sub (which can be 300w etc as a sub needs lots of power to move the large cone to give the bass kick). Keep to 4 ohms for both amp and speakers (the Infinity speakers present 4 ohms to the amp via the cross-over -keeping it simple). Yes you would need to wire it in but you may be able to get a suitable kit that will allow you to take the speaker-level outputs from your head-unit from the ISO connectors behind the dash and cut in so that the return from the amp goes into the speaker ISO leads in a sort of Y adapter. Can't find one on ebay... In other words Currently: Head-unit ->ISO->Speakers Upgrade: Head-unit ->ISO->AMP->ISO->Speakers Don't skimp on the wiring for the amp power supply for best results Discaimer: I was an Electronics Engineer who grew up in and out of Sound Studios with my Father, but car hi-fi is not my area of expertise - Coolcat is

2nd October 2014, 20:14	#9
kourgath Avid contributor Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: On the Border between Cornwall and Devon, near Tavistock Posts: 153 Thanks: 68 Thanked 22 Times in 21 Posts	Cheers mate, Dad was a Sound Engineer for various TV companies through the years and eventually went solo with a studio. When that folded I managed to get the Rogers Studio 1 which are a 2db matched pair that the Boss hates taking up a huge amount of room... I remember the 1812 Overture bit but as I was in the sound booth I didn't get the full whack - though the face on the two guys in the suite was a picture! (and a cone hanging out of the cabinet - those woofers were custom made jobs out of bextrene or such). Line-level outs do make life so much simpler. I do have an old Pioneer setup here (it had Dolphins on it's screen which kept the kids happy for ages) which has line-level o/p as well as a mic so that it can increase the volume if needed. When I had it in the Landie it really did need that mic! Also I have a Pioneer Carrozzeria 4 channel amp which I think is 30wRMSx4 into 4 ohms with a 3db down of 20-20k at 0.08 %THD. I also have a Becker Traffic Pro (from a Freelander) as well as suitable CD changer (2 actually) and the upgrade cable as I was thinking of getting a Freeloader at one point... My Symphony isn't all that great and as the changer and steering wheel controls have stopped working I'm onto investigating the K-bus and possibly playing with the Riesler interface to the I/K for fun - once I've finished building a Megashift for a mates LR with the 5 speed JATCO box and 2.5v6 from a 75.... Cheers Gavin

3rd October 2014, 08:28	#10
gritbox Loves to post MG ZT 190 Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Glasgow Posts: 497 Thanks: 25 Thanked 36 Times in 24 Posts	team, lovely write up and interesting that you suggest max of 50w rms per channel also interesting, is your mention of 1812 Overture...i love this kind of music and for that reason, id happily sacrifice ear bursting volume for crystal clarity ive decided, first thing im going to do is get better speakers and try them on their own, see what i think of the sound so, going by what youve just said, i think these speakers are what il go for: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HERTZ-ESK1...item4855a409df 100w rms, 4 ohms, freq of 60 - 23 khz and db rating of 93.5, tweeter 25mm which is same as existing if im not mistaken jeff, can you confirm the power of the output from the amp in the dd unit? if i just plug these right in, will it sound bad from the underpowered amp in unit? last question for now also...am i really better changing the speaker wire over? is it possible to just disconnect the existing wire and trace new, thicker stuff along an easier route?