Long overdue .

[Dashiel]

Originally Posted by sikelsh

Do you accept that without pens, more if not all would have survived?

Complete smokescreen and whitewash. 'It was pens so it was the hooligans, and hooligans are football supporters'. Straight from the pages of The Sun. I particularly like the way you start to quantify acceptable deaths 'more if not all would have survived'. Even 1 death is unacceptable, let alone 96. I think i am talikng to kelvin mckenzie, it only took him 23 years to accept he was wrong. In kelvins case, When you get all of your thoughts out of the 'little red book' of thatcherism, it takes a lot to change your mind.

If you squeeze thousands into a venue then anything can happen, pens or not.
There have been many crushes at football over the years, and lots of them have been at the entrances and stairways and corridoors of the venue. Often caused by people simply falling over, thereby creating a barrier. Or parts of the building failing due to overcrowding. Pens in those cases had absolutely nothing to do with those incidents whatsoever. What did cause trouble in all cases was inadequate crowd control leading to overcrowding.

At any event, area, no matter how good or bad the facility is, if you squeeze people in then anything can happen.

[sikelsh]

I can't see me changing my thoughts on this, so i wish you well

Simon

[Borg Warner]

Back in the late 1970’s whilst at my, then, local football stadium I was in the “home end”. Towards the end of the game I saw the away fans suddenly stream out of the ground at the opposite end. A few moments later as I tried to leave those same “fans” were now pouring in to the stand. I, and several hundred others, immediately turned and headed for the perceived safety of the pitch. Fortunately there were no pens or fencing to keep us in and we managed to escape.
At the time and in the years preceding the disaster, the emphasis was on crowd control and not safety. The above example illustrates this, how many remember the pitch invasion of Wembley in the mid-seventies by Scottish fans following their victory of England? Pens were installed to stop such events from happening. Short sighted yes but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Having fans in pens was tantamount to having locks on fire escapes, nowhere for people to go in an emergency. If pens were not a contributory factor then why are there none at stadia today?
Finally, Skilesh has simply voiced his opinion on the events, as have I. Surely he is allowed to do so without being subject to such comments. I understand that one of the rules of this club is to show respect to others opinions and values?

[Dashiel]

pens are used in germany spain and italy at big clubs. I know because i have seen them firsthand.
And yes they do have an element in them that if you were so inclined could call hooligans.
So if pens are inherently dangerous, as argued, we should be seeing hillsborough style disasters every year throughout europe and the world.
So why are we not seeing this?

It is because the police and stewards are not opening exit gates before cup matches, letting too many people in, thereby creating tragedies such as hillsborough.

[greendriver]

...& there was I hoping that one of you would eventually say "Oh! Actually, good point, I see it a little clearer now..."

Mistakes were made, let's find them, learn from them & not cloud the issue...