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Old 13th October 2019, 16:59   #11
macafee2
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Originally Posted by clf View Post
The minibus driver did take defensive action by applying the brakes. In the event of a collision, in this instance, the car WOULD be 100% at fault. There is no other way to see it. The law and highway code are black and white on this. Being courteous is not part of law. Being aware is. The minibus driver demonstrated this by applying the brakes to try to avoid a collision (whether his actions did this or not is irrelevant). He may even have been gently slowing suspecting the car may do what it did?

The car had a choice, in fact a number of them. At 20mph, the car could have accelerated slightly. If there was no room to do this, that only damns the car even more, as they were not reading the road! I am guessing too, that there were vehicles behind the minibus, which could be why the minibus driver did not slow. The minibus driver may have lost sight of the vehicle behind and therefore been concerned of a rear end collision . If there were no vehicles behind the minibus, the car could have slowed to slot in behind, again damning the car driver further.

Both drivers had an opportunity, both failed to use it, but the car driver forced a decision on the minibus (to slam on the brakes) by using their sense of entitlement. The minibus driver had right of way, the car driver should have respected that and acted accordingly. But as is all too common on the roads nowadays, we have people who have to be in front (occasionally I am guilty of that too, and kick myself after). I find it funny on some youtube videos of collisions, where the (in my view) guilty driver says, did you not see my indicator? errrm did you not see my 40ft fully laden container lorry????

Your situation as I read it, you placed the motorcycle cop in a potentially dangerous position. When letting traffic through, whilst it would not be your fault, you could should have been aware of the vehicles behind you in the other lane. The car driver passing in front of you, may not have seen the cop, coming up in the other lane. Here, you are forcing another vehicle to make a decision on what I imagine to be a straight continuous road, where stopping/slowing would be an unusual action? The car driver was already stopped, so them waiting a few more seconds is not hindering anyone else, and everyone knows then what each other is thinking. In a clear road behind you, it would be fine, courteous and a nice thing to do. But in a road where there were vehicles behind it would be potentially dangerous. At 10 seconds in, THIS video shows what I mean.

If I am in a single lane of traffic, and i see I will have to slow, I will happily let people out if they are waiting. However, if there is another lane to my side, I will still do it, but only if I make eye contact with the driver crossing. This way I can alert them of vehicles coming in the other lane. But if the traffic is moving, even if I am the only person on the road, I will not let them cross, as they can wait a few seconds until I pass, and they wont have to wonder if I am slowing to let them cross, or just adjusting my pace.

We are now no longer relying on rights of way, on the road, and now second guessing others (sometimes biased by their choice of vehicles too ).

(and yes you are correct, calling a collision an accident implies blame, which the police are not there to do, they gather the evidence for a court to decide that)


you seem to be trying to apportion blame, that is not the point of the post. It is about reacting to what is happening asap, not waiting for the situation to determinate until it becomes serious.

Re me not being aware of what is in the other lane, what other lane?
If the road is clear behind me, what would the point of me stopping?
Both motorcycle cop and I were on motorbikes.

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Old 13th October 2019, 17:06   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clf View Post
The minibus driver did take defensive action by applying the brakes. In the event of a collision, in this instance, the car WOULD be 100% at fault. There is no other way to see it. The law and highway code are black and white on this. Being courteous is not part of law. Being aware is. The minibus driver demonstrated this by applying the brakes to try to avoid a collision (whether his actions did this or not is irrelevant). He may even have been gently slowing suspecting the car may do what it did?

The car had a choice, in fact a number of them. At 20mph, the car could have accelerated slightly. If there was no room to do this, that only damns the car even more, as they were not reading the road! I am guessing too, that there were vehicles behind the minibus, which could be why the minibus driver did not slow. The minibus driver may have lost sight of the vehicle behind and therefore been concerned of a rear end collision . If there were no vehicles behind the minibus, the car could have slowed to slot in behind, again damning the car driver further.

Both drivers had an opportunity, both failed to use it, but the car driver forced a decision on the minibus (to slam on the brakes) by using their sense of entitlement. The minibus driver had right of way, the car driver should have respected that and acted accordingly. But as is all too common on the roads nowadays, we have people who have to be in front (occasionally I am guilty of that too, and kick myself after). I find it funny on some youtube videos of collisions, where the (in my view) guilty driver says, did you not see my indicator? errrm did you not see my 40ft fully laden container lorry????

Your situation as I read it, you placed the motorcycle cop in a potentially dangerous position. When letting traffic through, whilst it would not be your fault, you could should have been aware of the vehicles behind you in the other lane. The car driver passing in front of you, may not have seen the cop, coming up in the other lane. Here, you are forcing another vehicle to make a decision on what I imagine to be a straight continuous road, where stopping/slowing would be an unusual action? The car driver was already stopped, so them waiting a few more seconds is not hindering anyone else, and everyone knows then what each other is thinking. In a clear road behind you, it would be fine, courteous and a nice thing to do. But in a road where there were vehicles behind it would be potentially dangerous. At 10 seconds in, THIS video shows what I mean.

If I am in a single lane of traffic, and i see I will have to slow, I will happily let people out if they are waiting. However, if there is another lane to my side, I will still do it, but only if I make eye contact with the driver crossing. This way I can alert them of vehicles coming in the other lane. But if the traffic is moving, even if I am the only person on the road, I will not let them cross, as they can wait a few seconds until I pass, and they wont have to wonder if I am slowing to let them cross, or just adjusting my pace.

We are now no longer relying on rights of way, on the road, and now second guessing others (sometimes biased by their choice of vehicles too ).

(and yes you are correct, calling a collision an accident implies blame, which the police are not there to do, they gather the evidence for a court to decide that)
saw the video, the car with the dash cam may have allowed the car to pull out from the side road in to "his" lane but he did not as far as I could see signal the car to pull into another lane. The other driver took it upon themselves to pull into the next lane.


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Old 13th October 2019, 17:16   #13
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Originally Posted by macafee2 View Post
you seem to be trying to apportion blame, that is not the point of the post. It is about reacting to what is happening asap, not waiting for the situation to determinate until it becomes serious.

Re me not being aware of what is in the other lane, what other lane?
If the road is clear behind me, what would the point of me stopping?
Both motorcycle cop and I were on motorbikes.

macafee2
Re the minibus driver, I have stated my case, he did nothing wrong, and nothing for you to criticise him for. (maybe you didnt criticise, but offer your opinion of 'he could have let him in' ?) .

I watch one video and get sucked into the suggestions. THIS video (at 1.03 - it should play at it) is how I imagine what happened to the minibus and car, albeit without the aggression before. Bear in mind too, at the start of the video, it has been digitally zoomed in as evidenced at the end. So it could be reasonable to suggest there was room for the van to fall behind the Viva.


My apologies, I read it that there were two lanes. If you were both in the same lane, then the cop really should have read your moves, and not undertaken you, and it could be argued he did not have right of way. That was a dangerous move. He could have assumed that you were breaking down though? If you stopped you would be wrong and possibly dangerous, if you slowed and kept moving, the cop was wrong (he possibly should have checked on you if you had an issue needing assistance).

incidentally, you are suggesting blame by the very title of the thread lol. The car driver caused the situation and is at ''fault''. The minibus could have generously corrected it on behalf of the car, but didnt, but more importantly, he did not have to. He is already driving for others (the passengers), he does not need to drive for other road users as well.
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Old 13th October 2019, 17:18   #14
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Originally Posted by macafee2 View Post
saw the video, the car with the dash cam may have allowed the car to pull out from the side road in to "his" lane but he did not as far as I could see signal the car to pull into another lane. The other driver took it upon themselves to pull into the next lane.


macafee2
indeed, and agreed, but that was for how I envisaged your motorbike situation (which no longer applies)
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Old 13th October 2019, 18:21   #15
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Originally Posted by clf View Post
Re the minibus driver, I have stated my case, he did nothing wrong, and nothing for you to criticise him for. (maybe you didnt criticise, but offer your opinion of 'he could have let him in' ?) .

I watch one video and get sucked into the suggestions. THIS video (at 1.03 - it should play at it) is how I imagine what happened to the minibus and car, albeit without the aggression before. Bear in mind too, at the start of the video, it has been digitally zoomed in as evidenced at the end. So it could be reasonable to suggest there was room for the van to fall behind the Viva.


My apologies, I read it that there were two lanes. If you were both in the same lane, then the cop really should have read your moves, and not undertaken you, and it could be argued he did not have right of way. That was a dangerous move. He could have assumed that you were breaking down though? If you stopped you would be wrong and possibly dangerous, if you slowed and kept moving, the cop was wrong (he possibly should have checked on you if you had an issue needing assistance).

incidentally, you are suggesting blame by the very title of the thread lol. The car driver caused the situation and is at ''fault''. The minibus could have generously corrected it on behalf of the car, but didnt, but more importantly, he did not have to. He is already driving for others (the passengers), he does not need to drive for other road users as well.
I was a passenger in the mini bus, for may safety and for that of the other passengers, himself and those in the BMW are you sure he did not have to? Wow, putting the lives of other people at risk because "he had right of way", magic. You think that the mini bus driver seemingly to have ignored
the BMW was driving for me, for the passengers, for the BMW?

I reiterate the post was about reading the situation and reacting before it becomes dangerous. I accept the BMW was not correct in doing a U turn when in the left lane and crossing the path of the mini bus causing it to take evasive action. I consider that the warning signs were there but not acted upon by the mini bus driver. If the BMW had stayed in their lane the mini bus would have passed no issue. If the mini bus driver had braked sooner the passengers would not have been thrown forward with such force and the situation would not have become so urgent.


irrespective of right of way, safety is paramount.

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Old 13th October 2019, 18:23   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clf View Post
Re the minibus driver, I have stated my case, he did nothing wrong, and nothing for you to criticise him for. (maybe you didnt criticise, but offer your opinion of 'he could have let him in' ?) .

I watch one video and get sucked into the suggestions. THIS video (at 1.03 - it should play at it) is how I imagine what happened to the minibus and car, albeit without the aggression before. Bear in mind too, at the start of the video, it has been digitally zoomed in as evidenced at the end. So it could be reasonable to suggest there was room for the van to fall behind the Viva.


My apologies, I read it that there were two lanes. If you were both in the same lane, then the cop really should have read your moves, and not undertaken you, and it could be argued he did not have right of way. That was a dangerous move. He could have assumed that you were breaking down though? If you stopped you would be wrong and possibly dangerous, if you slowed and kept moving, the cop was wrong (he possibly should have checked on you if you had an issue needing assistance).

incidentally, you are suggesting blame by the very title of the thread lol. The car driver caused the situation and is at ''fault''. The minibus could have generously corrected it on behalf of the car, but didnt, but more importantly, he did not have to. He is already driving for others (the passengers), he does not need to drive for other road users as well.
video is nothing like the situation I refer to

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Old 13th October 2019, 18:39   #17
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Some drivers seem to be of the opinion that flicking an indicator on magically clears a path for them. Saw it one day at a local junction on the A1, traffic on the A1 was congested and slow moving, car went up the slip road, put its right hand indicator on, carried on and and side swiped a car in the tailback on the A1!
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Old 13th October 2019, 18:51   #18
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Posting from my own opinion, if I had seen the BMW approach from my left indicating to pull in to the lane I was occupying, I would have hung back and flashed the driver to come in front of me, expecting them to take a right turn the same as I was intending to do. Had I done this, and the other car performed a U turn in front of me, that is not being unobservant on my part. Ian your description of the incident is a bit vague, you say the BMW performed a U tornadoes this mean that it cut across the lane in front of the minibus, then through the junction on to the opposite carriageway, or on the same carriageway that it had just driven on? In case of the former, then it should have hung back, let the minibus pass then pulled in behind.If the latter, then driving dangerously springs to mind.
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Old 13th October 2019, 19:00   #19
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Originally Posted by macafee2 View Post
I was a passenger in the mini bus, for may safety and for that of the other passengers, himself and those in the BMW are you sure he did not have to? Wow, putting the lives of other people at risk because "he had right of way", magic. You think that the mini bus driver seemingly to have ignored
the BMW was driving for me, for the passengers, for the BMW?

I reiterate the post was about reading the situation and reacting before it becomes dangerous. I accept the BMW was not correct in doing a U turn when in the left lane and crossing the path of the mini bus causing it to take evasive action. I consider that the warning signs were there but not acted upon by the mini bus driver. If the BMW had stayed in their lane the mini bus would have passed no issue. If the mini bus driver had braked sooner the passengers would not have been thrown forward with such force and the situation would not have become so urgent.


irrespective of right of way, safety is paramount.

macafee

What is the point of having a right of way? Having an accepted right of way allows for a predictability on the roads. With the entitlement of 'I will drive where I want' eliminates that predictability and that is where accidents (because there will be a responsible party) occur. The highway code and law in fact does not allow for mind reading.

I didnt ignore anything. The car driver was driving for himself and no one else, either by a self belief of entitlement or a simple mistake has found themselves in the incorrect lane, they should have continued until it was safe for them to effect the turn. However, your narrative above has now added another fact (important too) 'If the BMW had stayed in their lane the mini bus would have passed no issue'. The minibus is travelling faster than the BMW or has the minbus driver accelerated to purposely block the BMW? Or the BMW started to slow down to fall behind, but changed their mind and at last minute accelerated to complete the U Turn? I know what you are saying, it is all if if if. But that line suggests the BMW was slowing, this then suggests the minibus driver could have been aware and was correct to continue?

It is this sense of entitlement on the roads now that I have a problem with, and I refuse to accept it! Drivers seem to ignore the rules of the road because of it, and if we allow it, it will lead to further accidents. If that means someone drives into me, so be it. BUT, I will make every effort to make sure me and my car is safe, however I will not endanger those behind me by slamming on my brakes (I slam on my brakes, the car behind, distracted by the entitled driver cutting me up, runs into the back of me, they then become at fault - driving too close - meanwhile the instigator of the accident has now safely left the scene, leaving others picking up the pieces)

I can honestly see where you are coming from, but you havent convinced me that the minibus driver has any fault, nor should the BMW driver have any expectation of the minibus letting him in. Of course yes, he could have contributed to avoiding the incident that did happen, and he DID react to avoid the car driver causing an accident . He also could have very reasonably have expected the car driver to give up on the move and continue to the next exit.
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Old 13th October 2019, 19:05   #20
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video is nothing like the situation I refer to

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then I have misread your post. I thought the BMW was forcing their way in front of the minibus (without the obvious aggression of that was in the video). Ignore everything I have said then.
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