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Old 26th January 2020, 20:23   #1
Darcydog
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Default Smart Motorways - Panorama investigation

Tomorrow BBC1 8:30pm

I have huge reservations about these. I now try to avoid the M3 bits as much as possible.

The pre programme blurb from the BBC states that via a FOI request they have found that on one section of the M25 in the five years prior to conversion to SmartMotorway there were 72 “near misses”.

In the five years after conversion the number of near misses was 1485.
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Old 26th January 2020, 21:03   #2
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coupled with the advert for the program was footage of near missis, the drivers were not paying attention.

I'm sure I have seen the dash cam footage to this accident and the driver was paying attention
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNJKzssuJzE


The mini bus broke down in lane 1, the hard shoulder was barrierd off.

The lorry with the dash cam was also travelling in lane 1. The lorry was overtaken by another lorry which then pulled into lane 1. The lead lorry saw the mini bus and moved to lane 2, the lorry with the dash cam which was behind in lane 1 saw the mini bus that much later and could not avoid it.

Loss of life and life changing injuries followed. The lorry driver with the dash cam was cleared of any offence and from what I saw in the dash cam footage, was the right decision.

I cant find the clip on Youtube but as a driving lesson, it should be there

I have set my recorder to record this program

It is hardly surprising there are near missis and accidents due to no "hard shoulder"


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Last edited by macafee2; 26th January 2020 at 21:05..
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Old 26th January 2020, 21:07   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macafee2 View Post
coupled with the advert for the program was footage of near missis, the drivers were not paying attention.

I'm sure I have seen the dash cam footage to this accident and the driver was paying attention
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNJKzssuJzE


The mini bus broke down in lane 1, the hard shoulder was barrierd off.

The lorry with the dash cam was also travelling in lane 1. The lorry was overtaken by another lorry which then pulled into lane 1. The lead lorry saw the mini bus and moved to lane 2, the lorry with the dash cam which was behind in lane 1 saw the mini bus that much later and could not avoid it.

Loss of life and life changing injuries followed. The lorry driver with the dash cam was cleared of any offence and from what I saw in the dash cam footage, was the right decision.

I cant find the clip on Youtube but as a driving lesson, it should be there

I have set my recorder to record this program

It is hardly surprising there are near missis and accidents due to no "hard shoulder"


macafee2
found it
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-eng...fatal-m4-crash

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Old 26th January 2020, 22:19   #4
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Having spent a long period of my life recovering HGVs from motorways, I would say that a hard shoulder is an absolute necessity. Even where there is one, it is a very dangerous place to be. I always parked my HGV recovery truck behind the stranded vehicle with the wheels pointing hard left until all the prep work was done before lifting/recovering. I would then pull around the vehicle to be recovered and attach the lifters or links at the last minute. It's not until you've been directly next to a busy motorway that you get the true sense of danger involved. I've heard of horrendous accidents that are rarely fully reported but folks in "the trade" are fully aware of. Never ever sit in your vehicle waiting to be recovered and when the recovery vehicle does arrive, stay clear until the recoverer has done his/her work. Stay safe folks.
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Old 26th January 2020, 22:59   #5
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Default Good Advice

Very good advice. Anything hitting you at 70mph is going to be catastrophic.
Get out, get on the other side of the barrier where fitted and well away from the road.
Cars can be replaced, people cannot.
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Old 27th January 2020, 00:44   #6
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Don't know why they are wasting time and resources on an enquiry - I could have told them 5 years ago, when they were postulated that Smart Motorways were lethal. In addition , a motorway cannot be smart - it is an inanimate object! Worse still, nobody has pointed out that modern cars give no warning of suddenly stopping - older ones would cough and splutter, but would carry on for a few miles., thus getting to a safe refuge.

Avoid at all costs.
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Old 27th January 2020, 01:16   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roverbarmy View Post
...... It's not until you've been directly next to a busy motorway that you get the true sense of danger involved......
Been there, done that. Thankfully only once after a puncture southbound on the "Smart" M1 just after Tibshelf services. There's a "refuge" thingy which I managed to get into with a direct phone line to the traffic controllers.

"..... I've closed off Lane 1..... (Which still leaves 3 live lanes)... Oh, thanks, shame about the line of HGV's in Lane 1 travelling at, I guess, 60 mph then..... which continued for several minutes. At that point I've have removed every single one of their licences and if they lost their jobs - tuff. If you chose to drive through a "Red Cross" that should be the consequence of your choice.

If I hadn't made it to the refuge (or there hadn't been one)........

Probably the most scared I've ever been in a motoring situation and that includes marshalling in the Pit Lane at Silverstone for the World Endurance 6 hours. These were the Le Mans cars - was used as a "sprint" race in prep for the Big Event and long before pit lane speed limits. It was reckoned that Jacky Ickx/Derek Bell etc. were well into 3 figures by the time they got to us. About 4 feet to the side of where we were standing . We were well protected...... by a white line on the tarmac. .

There is a bit of a but though.

Aren't we all supposed to be able to STOP in the distance we can see to be clear (on our own side of the road, in the lane we are in etc.) .

Having said all, that totally agree that in reality it's just a disaster waiting to happen.

Be safe out there.

Andy.

Last edited by AndyN01; 27th January 2020 at 01:37..
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Old 27th January 2020, 08:13   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyN01 View Post
Been there, done that. Thankfully only once after a puncture southbound on the "Smart" M1 just after Tibshelf services. There's a "refuge" thingy which I managed to get into with a direct phone line to the traffic controllers.

"..... I've closed off Lane 1..... (Which still leaves 3 live lanes)... Oh, thanks, shame about the line of HGV's in Lane 1 travelling at, I guess, 60 mph then..... which continued for several minutes. At that point I've have removed every single one of their licences and if they lost their jobs - tuff. If you chose to drive through a "Red Cross" that should be the consequence of your choice.

If I hadn't made it to the refuge (or there hadn't been one)........

Probably the most scared I've ever been in a motoring situation and that includes marshalling in the Pit Lane at Silverstone for the World Endurance 6 hours. These were the Le Mans cars - was used as a "sprint" race in prep for the Big Event and long before pit lane speed limits. It was reckoned that Jacky Ickx/Derek Bell etc. were well into 3 figures by the time they got to us. About 4 feet to the side of where we were standing . We were well protected...... by a white line on the tarmac. .

There is a bit of a but though.

Aren't we all supposed to be able to STOP in the distance we can see to be clear (on our own side of the road, in the lane we are in etc.) .

Having said all, that totally agree that in reality it's just a disaster waiting to happen.

Be safe out there.

Andy.

Andy, unfortunately those that control the overhead gantry's also have to take some responsibility for people ignoring the signs. Time and again overhead gantry's are not updated. I would be very scared to stop in a lane with a red cross, I'd look to change lane and keep going and I would seriously have to consider if to keep going at a reduce speed if all lanes showed a red cross but no one was stopping, I would be terrified of being rear ended, I would not be being arrogant, just fearful of my and my passengers safety.
I have seen the red cross on smart motorways over the "hard shoulder" ignored.

Going North or South I cant recall the hard shoulder is often "open" to traffic but at the next junction it is for the exit only then after the exit for all traffic and then for the exit only and so it goes on..... I don't consider this clever but bordering on dangerous as vehicle's are in and out of lanes and for those towing is more of a problem.

smart motorways...... not the best decision but a lot of money has been spent creating them and so doing away with them is probably not an option.

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Old 27th January 2020, 09:07   #9
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Reported that the man who authorised them, Sir Mike Penning, has stated that he was misled when making his decision. He obviously needs a brain transplant!
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Old 27th January 2020, 09:10   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macafee2 View Post
Andy, unfortunately those that control the overhead gantry's also have to take some responsibility for people ignoring the signs. Time and again overhead gantry's are not updated. I would be very scared to stop in a lane with a red cross, I'd look to change lane and keep going and I would seriously have to consider if to keep going at a reduce speed if all lanes showed a red cross but no one was stopping, I would be terrified of being rear ended, I would not be being arrogant, just fearful of my and my passengers safety.
I have seen the red cross on smart motorways over the "hard shoulder" ignored.

Going North or South I cant recall the hard shoulder is often "open" to traffic but at the next junction it is for the exit only then after the exit for all traffic and then for the exit only and so it goes on..... I don't consider this clever but bordering on dangerous as vehicle's are in and out of lanes and for those towing is more of a problem.

smart motorways...... not the best decision but a lot of money has been spent creating them and so doing away with them is probably not an option.

macafee2

Totally agree.

Sorry if I didn't make it clear in my post. By "Driving through" I meant making a choice to ignore the signs and deliberately not change lanes. In my case there were 3 other lanes available - I accept only 2 for HGV's but still 2 - and free running. The M'way wasn't congested. IMHO it was a deliberate choice to stay put and "not be bothered" to move out into Lane 2.

And yes, I've driven many, many miles when the overhead gantry signs are simply stupid and asking to be ignored.

I and all the other cars have been in Lane 4 at 40mph with red crosses on Lanes 1, 2 & 3. Guess where the HGV's were? Yep, Lane 1 undertaking all of us at 60mph. And no, as far as I could see there was no reason whatsoever for any of the lanes to be closed off. Actually really dangerous with cars all bottled up in one lane.

IMHO the signs must be "real time" to be trusted and effective. I've posted elsewhere about "crying wolf" with these things.

In one instance there was a 60mph limit for several miles for no reason I could see. There was one gantry which had 50mph on it - so I slowed down. The next one was back to 60mph - so I speeded up again. Still couldn't work out why or what was causing the speed reduction. There was simply nothing to see. No breakdowns, no maintenance, no congestion, perfect visibility, clean, dry road etc. nothing.

Guess what else was on the gantry with the 50mph limit?

If you guessed a speed camera you'd be absolutely correct.

And yes, it flashed several folks by the time it disappeared from my mirror.

How to lose the respect of the general motorist in one easy lesson.

The whole thing needs seriously overhauling maybe by folks who actually have lots of real life experience of what actually happens rather than someone in an office who travels by the Tube......

Stay safe.

Andy.

PS On my journey North yesterday up the M1 there was something "new" to me. The gantries with speed cameras had the National Speed Limit symbol illuminated and the words "Speed Camera." But the gantries before and after were blank........

Last edited by AndyN01; 27th January 2020 at 09:41..
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