EU vote?

[Leyland Worldmaster]

Originally Posted by topman

Its sad that companies flout the law. You can opt out, but there's always people ready to think they don't have to follow the law.
The idea was to stop people working too many hours.

Also dangerous. This is a large bus company in London...

After training and passing test the attitude is thus; You're no good to us if you don't sign this. So sign up, or leave, having to pay all of the training costs...

[HarryM1BYT]

Originally Posted by Leyland Worldmaster

I'll repeat what I said a posts back; the company I work for "encourages" new employees to Oot out of the European Working Time Directive...

How many others do?

What's the point of it?

Mine did!

But then I was always more than happy to work what ever hours were needed, to get the job done.

[Polly]

Originally Posted by bobthebuilder

Totally agree with you Gman2. I find it utterly depressing that the Out camp have no interest in the economic arguments, and just ignore the damage that will be done if we leave. No one is really disputing it, it's just a matter of how long it lasts.

I'm very glad the government has an opinion on the matter, and is willing to spend some money stating the facts. What they've spent is a pittance compared to how much the country will be financially disadvantaged by if we leave.

And if the Leave campaign was based on anything but wishful thinking, here's some questions I'd like answered:

What will happen to all the Europeans currently working in high tech industries and the NHS? Will they be allowed to continue? And what about new workers? I guess they will be allowed to apply for visas. Will that make us more or less efficient?

What does Boris perpetuate the big fat lie about us sending £350 million a week to the EU? Tell the truth Boris!

What will happen to mobile data roaming charges in Europe that the EU got reduced? Will they go up?

Will we able to travel to Europe at will anymore?

Will European students be able to come to our universities and bring much needed revenue?

How will the City fare? Europe has been gunning for it for years, will financial institutions have to move away because of restrictions placed upon financial transactions?

Who will protect us from anti-competitive behaviour by the likes of Google and Microsoft? (The EU prosecuted them for stitching us all up for years.)

Who will enshrine in law workers rights to holidays and maximum possible working hours, as I assume the working time directive etc will no longer apply.

What will happen to all the other laws that actually protect us from government and big business abuse? Will they all be abandoned? What will happen in the interim?

Seeing as how Boris is only interested in becoming PM and sees the referendum as his chance to achieve this, I doubt he cares much about the reality of life outside the EU.

You ask all these questions, but haven't they already been answered many times over.
Europeans living and working here; is there any reason why they would not be allowed to stay? There are already people of ALL nationalities living and working here.
The 350m IS the correct top line figure, even Boris will admit we get perhaps half of that back, but his point remains... We have no control over either how much we get back, or what it is spent on, and of course there is still rather a large sum that we DON'T get back.
Roaming charges.. Well perhaps I'll grant you that one, but do you really believe that to be sufficiently important? And even if the are abolished, the providers must surely recoup the money elsewhere, so if you don't pay roaming charges, you will simply pay more elsewhere.
Traveling in Europe; can't you already travel the whole world? Can you really imagine Spain saying Sorry, we don't want British tourists anymore.
European students: student exchange programmes already operate outside the EU, and are generally considered beneficial to all. I can't see any reason why we want to change that.
How will the City fare: well perhaps it is the City who are calling the shots here, but there is a whole world out there that they already operate in, and unless you are saying the UK economy can't operate outside the EU. Of course the EU could put restrictions on financial transactions, but then we could put restrictions on EU imports. There has to be a balance.
Restrictions on Google etc. Can't see why we can't do that outside the EU, after all, it's a global market place and we already have to cooperate with many other countries to counter tax evasion. And, as you say, it has taken the EU many years to act.
Workers rights: surely not beyond the capabilities of our own government, who we actually can kick out should we not approve of there actions.
It will take several years to negotiate our way out of the EU, so EU laws won't disappear overnight. Perhaps we might loose some laws that we rather like, but we can still make that known at the ballot box.
And even if we do get Boris as our next prime minister, which I rather doubt, he to will have to face the electors quite soon afterwards.


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[bobthebuilder]

Polly, and new EU workers coming to fill needed posts? Out of the EU it will cost more and add delays.

£350m is an irrelevant figure, we NEVER hand that much over. Boris might as well claim we cough up a gazillion pounds a week since we'd get most back. Even the rest of the Out campaign is too embarrassed to claim we pay that much.

Of course we will still be able to visit Spain. But without the right to free travel it will become more bureaucratic, in both directions.

We could indeed put tariffs or constraints on EU financial transactions or trade, but as we are so much smaller that the combined might of the EU, who will win that battle?

You think the UK government will have the guts to take on Google etc? Just remind me how much tax courageous George extracted out of them? At least the French are doing something about it, we just caved in.

Workers rights? Frankly I don't trust the conservatives to protect them.

I think it's alarmingly likely we have Boris as PM by the autumn. Tory MPs are already openly challenging Cameron, and we'd be stuck with him for 3 years.

[wraymond]

Originally Posted by topman

I'm pretty sure they are voted in, not by general voting but by voting within the parliament itself. The council is a seperate function from the commision.
The laws propsed are often modified and compromised long before they arrive for open voting by the parliament. Much like many other governments, no one would propose a law they knew would be voted down. Comprises are sought gained and traded off, such is politics. Isn't politics the art of compromise.

Yes that’s the whole point! It’s a closed vote by the beneficiaries of the system and with no democratic imperative. Voting for the gravy train by its passengers is not attractive.

[topman]

Originally Posted by wraymond

Yes that’s the whole point! It’s a closed vote by the beneficiaries of the system and with no democratic imperative. Voting for the gravy train by its passengers is not attractive.

I think it mirrors quite a lot of governments, I think they are similar to senior civil sevrants here in the UK (although not identical). Although they aren't voted in, many important jobs don't even have a vote closed or otherwise in this country and I'm not sure that's overly bad. It would be nice to vote everyone of importance in, however you end up too many elections. At some point you have to let, whatever system of government you have, get on with it.

[wraymond]

Originally Posted by bobthebuilder

Why do you keep wrongly stating we send £350 million a week to the EU. We don't!

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-m...ee-55-million/

And with the big hit we will take on GDP on leaving, the economy will contract so who knows what the final position could be. We won't suddenly be £18 billion better off. Especially if we have to cough up for EU trading rights as other 'non EU' nations do. But without any influence of course.

OK Bob, let's lay the ghost! £350 million pounds a week is the total of what we send as a gross figure. We receive a discount on that together with various grants resulting in a net figure. That's not in dispute and never has been although the amount being bandied about by various national figures has led to contentious misunderstanding, often deliberate.

The truth is the amounts the EU retains that come back as grants are project-specific, we have no control over how that money is used. In addition, the 'discount' is calculated after our 'membership dues' are subtracted. So the combined real world total is that £350 million a week that we would retain total control over and would be able to use as we see fit rather than being told what we can use it for.

[bobthebuilder]

Originally Posted by wraymond

OK Bob, let's lay the ghost! £350 million pounds a week is the total of what we send as a gross figure. We receive a discount on that together with various grants resulting in a net figure. That's not in dispute and never has been although the amount being bandied about by various national figures has led to contentious misunderstanding, often deliberate.

The truth is the amounts the EU retains that come back as grants are project-specific, we have no control over how that money is used. In addition, the 'discount' is calculated after our 'membership dues' are subtracted. So the combined real world total is that £350 million a week that we would retain total control over and would be able to use as we see fit rather than being told what we can use it for.

I give up. We don't send £350 million a week to the EU. Please read the link.


If you ask to borrow £20, I agree to lend you £10 and then you only return £5, my exposure to you is £5. In these circumstances it would be wrong to claim you've cost me £20, when in fact you've cost me £5.

[wraymond]

Originally Posted by topman

I think it mirrors quite a lot of governments, I think they are similar to senior civil sevrants here in the UK (although not identical). Although they aren't voted in, many important jobs don't even have a vote closed or otherwise in this country and I'm not sure that's overly bad. It would be nice to vote everyone of importance in, however you end up too many elections. At some point you have to let, whatever system of government you have, get on with it.

As a wider issue yes, you may be right. But it is rather satisfying that we have the sanction of refusing to continually vote them in. Ultimately we get what we deserve in our politicians and as the national mood changes we can change direction. With the EU, they refuse to change their intended direction whatever constituent members say. It's even worse than an elected dictatorship, it is, effectively, communism. That's why the USA wants us in, they don't understand the European Left.

[topman]

Originally Posted by wraymond

As a wider issue yes, you may be right. But it is rather satisfying that we have the sanction of refusing to continually vote them in. Ultimately we get what we deserve in our politicians and as the national mood changes we can change direction. With the EU, they refuse to change their intended direction whatever constituent members say. It's even worse than an elected dictatorship, it is, effectively, communism. That's why the USA wants us in, they don't understand the European Left.

Agree it's quite tricky, it's a three legged stool. We could of course remove them, but that could cause problems that we won't forsee.

Communism, that's a bit strong.