EU vote?

[topman]

Originally Posted by neilbaker86

It is so obvious to me that Barack Obama has been asked to say what he did. Although it would be in America's interest for us to remain so we can be their puppet within the EU anyway.

I strongly feel that the government shouldn't take a position! And certainly not spend tax payers money and use the power of the civil service on it! This is the sort of thing Putin and Kim Jong Un would do. Not what I expect from a western democracy. David Cameron could've simply given us the referendum, campainged himself for the IN campaign whilst sticking to their spending limit. (Not that spending limits seem to bother him!) That would've made a fair referendum. Anyone who cannot agree with that level playing field, which would be nothing but fair, is clearly all for IN and is quite prepared to allow our government to rig the outcome at any cost.

I'm not sure that there is much more behind what he said than just that. He thinks it's in our and their interests to remain.

How can the government not have a position? His government (with some disagreement ) is in favour of remaining, it seems fair enough to me that they spell out why they think that. I don't think that is rigging anything.

[bobthebuilder]

Totally agree with you Gman2. I find it utterly depressing that the Out camp have no interest in the economic arguments, and just ignore the damage that will be done if we leave. No one is really disputing it, it's just a matter of how long it lasts.

I'm very glad the government has an opinion on the matter, and is willing to spend some money stating the facts. What they've spent is a pittance compared to how much the country will be financially disadvantaged by if we leave.

And if the Leave campaign was based on anything but wishful thinking, here's some questions I'd like answered:

What will happen to all the Europeans currently working in high tech industries and the NHS? Will they be allowed to continue? And what about new workers? I guess they will be allowed to apply for visas. Will that make us more or less efficient?

What does Boris perpetuate the big fat lie about us sending £350 million a week to the EU? Tell the truth Boris!

What will happen to mobile data roaming charges in Europe that the EU got reduced? Will they go up?

Will we able to travel to Europe at will anymore?

Will European students be able to come to our universities and bring much needed revenue?

How will the City fare? Europe has been gunning for it for years, will financial institutions have to move away because of restrictions placed upon financial transactions?

Who will protect us from anti-competitive behaviour by the likes of Google and Microsoft? (The EU prosecuted them for stitching us all up for years.)

Who will enshrine in law workers rights to holidays and maximum possible working hours, as I assume the working time directive etc will no longer apply.

What will happen to all the other laws that actually protect us from government and big business abuse? Will they all be abandoned? What will happen in the interim?

Seeing as how Boris is only interested in becoming PM and sees the referendum as his chance to achieve this, I doubt he cares much about the reality of life outside the EU.

[MSS]

A few excellent and well thought out posts from Gman2, topman and bobthebuilder above gents.

[rab60bit]

Originally Posted by neilbaker86

I have to say that over the last few weeks I've never felt so annoyed with any government as I do now.

David Cameron knew all along what he was doing, he reluctantly gave us an EU referendum because UKIP were stealing Conservative votes (remember nearly 4 million people voted UKIP at the last general election), but knew he would simply rig the whole thing from start to finish, he has pulled every string going, from getting Barack Obama and various 'think tanks' to tell us how bad it will be if we leave (most of whom incidentally are funded by the EU). Tell us that WW3 will start, that holidays will be more expensive, that pensioners will be poor, the list truly does go on, there is another 'shock horror' headline every single day, they've obviously spent time coming up with a list which they are simply running down.

Then spending £9million pounds of tax payers money on a TOTALLY one sided leaflet, setting up a website (https://www.eureferendum.gov.uk/) with TOTALLY one sided information on it, which now, because of 'purdah' rules has a notice at the top saying that 'no further material will be published', but IT'S ALL STILL ON THERE! They don't need to publish anything else! The website should be taken down, full stop. I've also seen countless adverts on YouTube and other social media sites funded by my own government telling me how bad it will be if we leave and that therefore I must vote to stay in.

I guarantee you, that IF we vote to leave the EU, it simply will not happen. Dave will go straight over there, do some further 'negoations' (which will have already taken place behind closed doors) and then come back asking us again, a bit like Ireland and the Lisbon treaty. This phoney 'renegotiation' will probably be relating to the freedom of movement. One thing I think we pretty much all feel is that David Cameron is a down right liar, so why is he hell bent on us remaining? I strongly suspect it's simply because the political classes all stick together so that he can have a nice little number over in Brussels when his political career ends in this country. The old boys club firmly in action.

No question that both Call me Dave and Generous George have gone down (way, way down) in mine and Mrs. Rabbit's esteem - and historically we've been enthusiasts of the party
UK politics aside, this is about the country and the future (Mrs. Rabbit and my personal future only measures at best 20-25 years…). All arguments need to remember that we ARE already well entrenched in the EC - a major financial contributor (not too many of them in the 27) and the SOLE member state that is currently doing comparatively well. The EC cadre must be concerned that if we try to leave that will
a) send out a signal for other like tending States to start proceedings to do the same i.e. domino effect = high probability bye bye EC as we know it!
b) no State as deeply involved (and arguably important) as the UK has EVER left the Club so who would like to predict what that might bring down on the remaining members - a lot of pressure to seriously consider fundamental changes to what was initially a really good idea??
High stake gamble by Call me Dave or even a win win strategy - perhaps.
c) European military force? Chocolate poker effectiveness never mind the undoubted huge cost (more 'free' dough to tap into).
The EC structure is fundamentally flawed for most functions other than producing/instigating standards for all sorts of 'things'! It's a self supporting, self serving, fantastically high overhead parasitic bureaucracy - existing for it's own good. The old visionary ISC/EEC ideals have long gone - lip service and grey suits/bean counters have usurped the 'beautiful european game'.
Just consider the recent shambles 'they' made of resolving(?) a migrant crisis; dilly/dally, followed by unilateral dictates all over the place, followed by more dilly/dally misguidance and misdirection, misery for multiple 100's of 1000's both in and out of the flow of humanity, even more dilly/dally and then (lightbulb decision) pay a mercenary, non-member, regressive country a huge amount of 'our' collective monies to manage the problem….effectiveness 2, smug meter reading 99 - and the problem shifts elsewhere!!
Britain has managed to successfully trade with the world for 100's of years (and sort of ruled the world for 200 years, generally for the better).
I'd much rather keep my 600 odd scallywags in Westminster, wholly accountable to me and my fellow electorate every 4 years (under our arguably flawed but well tried respected system of government, law making and Courts) than the utterly unaccountable 800 odd Brussels/Strasbourg scoundrels and their European Courts who appear to go their own way.
It's going to hell in a hand basket and I don't want to go there quite yet.

[Leyland Worldmaster]

Originally Posted by bobthebuilder

Totally agree with you Gman2. I find it utterly depressing that the Out camp have no interest in the economic arguments, and just ignore the damage that will be done if we leave. No one is really disputing it, it's just a matter of how long it lasts.

I'm very glad the government has an opinion on the matter, and is willing to spend some money stating the facts. What they've spent is a pittance compared to how much the country will be financially disadvantaged by if we leave.

And if the Leave campaign was based on anything but wishful thinking, here's some questions I'd like answered:

What will happen to all the Europeans currently working in high tech industries and the NHS? Will they be allowed to continue? And what about new workers? I guess they will be allowed to apply for visas. Will that make us more or less efficient?

What does Boris perpetuate the big fat lie about us sending £350 million a week to the EU? Tell the truth Boris!

What will happen to mobile data roaming charges in Europe that the EU got reduced? Will they go up?

Will we able to travel to Europe at will anymore?

Will European students be able to come to our universities and bring much needed revenue?

How will the City fare? Europe has been gunning for it for years, will financial institutions have to move away because of restrictions placed upon financial transactions?

Who will protect us from anti-competitive behaviour by the likes of Google and Microsoft? (The EU prosecuted them for stitching us all up for years.)

Who will enshrine in law workers rights to holidays and maximum possible working hours, as I assume the working time directive etc will no longer apply.

What will happen to all the other laws that actually protect us from government and big business abuse? Will they all be abandoned? What will happen in the interim?

Seeing as how Boris is only interested in becoming PM and sees the referendum as his chance to achieve this, I doubt he cares much about the reality of life outside the EU.

Where I work we are "encouraged" to Oot out of the Working Time Directive...

[topman]

Originally Posted by Leyland Worldmaster

Where I work we are "encouraged" to Oot out of the Working Time Directive...

I once worked somewhere like that, I didn't stay long.

[wraymond]

Originally Posted by HarryM1BYT

Wraymond..

I didn't bother to vote, simply because there was no one I felt worthy of my vote. I don't normally vote for parties, but the first time I bothered to vote I voted UKIP. I felt they had something to offer and they deserved my support.

We have an almost useless MP, but a local councillor worthy of my vote. I dislike speeches, I am impressed by action rather than words and promises. My partner has never voted, ever, but gives no reason for that not wishing to vote.

Thanks for that Harry, I wasn't referring to you! Your earlier post prompted me to go off at a tangent on something that I could not remember being mentioned before! Once started..... Just a generalisation!

[neilbaker86]

Originally Posted by mss

A few excellent and well thought out posts from Gman2, topman and bobthebuilder above gents.

Couldn't disagree more, sorry.

I find it totally and wholly unacceptable for any government to be telling me how to vote, be it a referendum or otherwise. Members of the government can give their opinion (under the rules which those wishing us to leave should also stick to). But they should not be doing that as the government and spending tax payers money on it.

Also, if I worked for a company which attempted to tell me how I should vote either way, I wouldn't work there long either.

[kc13661]

My opinion is based mainly on immigration, my son who is a UK Citizen from Birth, decided a few years ago to teach English in a foreign country, he chose the Republic of Georgia (just for reference a non EU Country)

Whilst there he met a girl and the relationship developed eventually leading to marriage (in Georgia) this was three and a half years ago. They were living in Georgia however he was encouraged to come back to the UK to complete his degree, mainly for job prospects.

He came back and took up his final year of study, his wife was allowed to come to the UK but only on a Family visitor visa, this would allow up to 6 months stay but then have to leave for 6 months.

For them to come and reside in the UK my son had to prove that he was working or had independent savings of £18,500 a year to support him and his wife, if they have a child this amount will go up.

Anyway whilst here she has to abide by certain conditions, she cannot work voluntary or paid, she cannot attend any educational courses and she must have private health care as she cannot use the NHS, she cannot access any UK benefits.

Now the story progresses, my son completed his degree with First with Honours, the University recognised that he had firsts in every assignment and immediately offered him employment, with a salary that met their needs.

His wife has now had to return to Georgia as her second family visa has reached its 6 month period, she now has to apply for a visa to reside in the UK, his will last if granted for two and a half years at which point it will be reviewed to make sure they are still together and that they meet the required financial target.

What she has to do for her visa,

In Georgia obtain a certificate to say she has been tested and is clear of TB
She has had to sit an English Exam, to show she can speak and write basic English
They have to provide documented proof of earnings, also documents of marriage, along with wedding photo's, e mails and other communications all proving that the marriage is not a scam. We have to provide proof that we sponsor her stay in the UK until they can find a home, now all this comes at a cost, and it will be in excess of £5,000

Do Not get me wrong, if the system says this is the way then so be it.... but why then do we allow the 'Free Travel of all these people' people that are not in a financial position to help themselves let alone contribute to our society.

Then on top of this the EU demands we take refugees and is looking at another possible five members been introduced into the fold, five members that cannot support themselves.

I am not a racist.... I AM Prejudice

I am old enough to remember my dad campaigning strongly to Say NO to the 'Common Market' he like others foreseen what was to come.

My Vote is OUT

[MSS]

Originally Posted by neilbaker86

Couldn't disagree more, sorry.

I find it totally and wholly unacceptable for any government to be telling me how to vote, be it a referendum or otherwise. Members of the government can give their opinion (under the rules which those wishing us to leave should also stick to). But they should not be doing that as the government and spending tax payers money on it.

Also, if I worked for a company which attempted to tell me how I should vote either way, I wouldn't work there long either.

I reject your disagreement, because your consensus is not required for me to congratulate selected members for their posts that I consider to be excellent. Your disagreement is misplaced, sorry.

You may of course hold and express your own views of their posts.

It is perfectly reasonable for a business to have a position on the in/out debate from the perspective of what is good for the business. I think most people confuse this with the company trying to tell them how to vote.

A government should most definitely have a position.