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Old 19th April 2018, 13:54   #41
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Brexit or not, many voted, well those who were interested, and one side got more votes than the other. That was pretty straight forward and I for one accept that. The rest is down to the powers to be to sort out? And the vote was national ie United Kingdom not a regional vote so whats all this about how many Scots,NorthernIrish, Welsh or English voted which way, and name calling. Seems a bit, well distasteful to me. Chris S.
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Old 19th April 2018, 18:12   #42
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Hi, it's unfortunate in some respects because, many people who voted to leave won't be affected by leaving the EU, IMO it should have been a vote decided by younger folk who's future may well be affected.

My own view as I'm in the older category, if it creates harmony and avoids war then let it be however, I do believe the better way forward may have been to re negotiate our position and remain.

The governments target on immigration 100,000 remains at close to 250,000 and includes many none EU migrants. We are a small Island and can't continue under such pressure on our NHS, schools, housing and benefit system, these pressures can spark racism and therefore remains a delicate topic.

i've never really understood all this ..'it's the youngsters future that has been robbed.....The young people should decide the future etc etc....... nonsense.


What exactly is that all about?


Under what serious rationale should some voters get more of a say than others?

Rather ironically every single new regulation and directive is devised and put forward by unelected Beurocrats. The elected MEPs are unable to propose any legislation themselves despit being the only democratically elected people in the whole institution.

So those young people don't ever get a vote on who makes their laws and don't ever get the chance to vote them out either if they disagree with whats going on anyway.



The EU is a disgusting corrupt, gravy train for some, totally lacking in any shred of recognized democracy.


What other reason does anyone with their head screwed on need to demand to leave it?
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Old 20th April 2018, 06:23   #43
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Interesting post bendrick, Regarding the younger vote that was my opinion and don't believe I used the term robbed.

Yes, the EU has what's commonly known as a democratic deficit however, it happens to be more democratic than our own national parliament and the house of commons with a first past the post system.

We also have the unelected house of lords and given the unrepresentative house of commons in terms of political parties to votes one might come to the conclusion that the EU with it's council of ministers is more democratic than our own system.

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Old 20th April 2018, 21:17   #44
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Interesting post bendrick, Regarding the younger vote that was my opinion and don't believe I used the term robbed.

Yes, the EU has what's commonly known as a democratic deficit however, it happens to be more democratic than our own national parliament and the house of commons with a first past the post system.

We also have the unelected house of lords and given the unrepresentative house of commons in terms of political parties to votes one might come to the conclusion that the EU with it's council of ministers is more democratic than our own system.

I'm sorry didn't intend to give the impression that you used the term robbed.

I was speaking/writing rhetorically in regards to the whiners who continue to trot out the expression 'Youngsters robbed of their future' on every single political debate show, rather than referring to yourself.



Given my experience working in the European parliament in Briussels for an MEP I'm afraid that we'll have to agree to disagree on the point of democracy.

The first past the post system used to elect the government in the UK is badly flawed, however British voters do actually have a vote.

The EU commission and presidents are not elected by the people and can never be voted out. Yet it is they and their staff who devise and propose all the legislation that affects our lives here.


The European parliament which is the only part of the EU whose representatives are elected by the people does not propose any legislation whatsoever and can not alter the legislation put forward to them, only vote on ammendments to what is put before them by the unelected.

The EU parliament can only put forward changes or amendments which are routinely disregarded.

One perfect example of the lack of any point to the MEPs and their chamber is the motion put forward now on two seperate occasions to stop the ludicrous moving the entire parliament to Strasbourg every month, moving MEPs, staff their boxes and boxes of documents etc etc just to please the French.


The motion to end this mega expensive madness has twice been heavily voted through by MEPs and just ignored each time by the commission.

The elections for the presidents of the various bodies and commission are one candidate Stalinesque type votes, endorsements of European nobodies who have been chosen behind the scenes before being put forward as the only candidate.

Which is why we end up with the likes of ex Maoist, Prodi and current Luxembourg nonentity Juncker running the show


It may well be your idea of democracy but I'm afraid I'm struggling to recognise any such resemblence of the description of what I understand democracy to be with what I witnessed in Brussels on a daily basis.




As regards the House of Lords it is a complete and utter discgrace and should be scrapped tomorrow, however I fail to see any difference in it's undemocratic concept and that of the European Union.
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Old 21st April 2018, 06:51   #45
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Hi bendrick as this is a discussion it's refreshing to read your post which is clear and well put, no apology needed. I always thought the council of ministers had the power to influence legislation using the yellow card process. Is it also true that citizens can lobby MEP's have matters brought before the ECJ via petition?
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Old 23rd April 2018, 20:47   #46
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My apologies for the delay in reply.

The yellow card system is virtually never used and technically can result in the unelected beureaucrats considering amending proposals if individual governments object.

Citizens can lobby MEPs by petition but again can ( and will be) be totally ignored and it basically means nothing.


You'll find that the EU makes a great pretence about 'openess' 'transparency' and laughably 'democracy' but it all means nothing it's all a sham.

Some claim that the appointment of individual countries commissioners is democratic because they are chosen by the elected governments of each country but in reality it just means that they are appointed by the same cronyism that elevates sychophantic non entities to the house of Lords.

Kinnock
Mandelson
Johnathan Hill

The laughably titled Baroness Ashcroft who was appointed to run the EU external service.

All a result of non elected cronyism


They all now vote on Brexit matters along with many others who are in receipt of EU pensions.


In local council chambers the length and breadth of the UK a councillor has to declare an interest on the slightest of associations to a topic being debated whether personal or that of a family member, withdraw from the chamber and not take any part in discussion or vote on any particular subject that they could be accused of having a personal interest in however tenuous.

Wheras these jokers who have a massive personal financial interest have the cheek to vote on Brexit matters in the house of lords.



You will find that nothing is democratic in the EU even the voting. Quite some years ago before ever going over to Brussels I spoke to an MEP who told me that mostly the electronic system is not used because the EU parliament votes on so many new legislative matters put before them in each session that the system cannot cope fast enough.

Most of the voting is done by hand ....Red Robbo car park style.....and he demonstrated to me how fast the votes were taken. It was literally..... For, Against abstain, For Against abstain, For against abstain.


The speed identical to the speed that you just read that, 3 new laws to govern you and your family, and they are voting literally hundreds and hundreds of these through in many sessions just like that.


He told me that it had quickly become obvious to him that many laws were being passed that were actually being voted down and he had twice stopped the voting to complain. The first time the chairman/president pointed to a pile of legislative papers 18 inches high on his desk and said " but we have to vote on all these"

The MEP insisted on the last ( false vote) being redone electronically which they did, only to find that ( these are not the exact figures but are roughly in proportion to what he said the figures were as I can't remember them now)

For 265 against 470


And this had actually been passed on a show of hands.


Is that how you imagined many of the laws that you now live under to have been passed? And do you find that acceptable?



I must confess to being horrified when being told of this but in equal measure also didn't quite believe that such blatant vote rigging or procedures were actually being carried out.


However a couple of years later I came across a clip on youtube of him stopping voting in the EU parliament and complaining about exactly the farce that the voting is.



I hope that people are shocked.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKQAE...em-uploademail






For some reason I can't do the link but just copy and paste the words below into the Youtube search box and prepare for another example :-



The european parliament vote 16x in 1 minute Then dinner time







And this is how the laws governing you and your families and this country have been voted on for decades.


It's not for me thanks.

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Old 23rd April 2018, 21:11   #47
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It appears the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement is in fact underpinned by the EU in as much as, during our membership NI,UK and the Republic were all members. Border control may well be a precursor to renewed trouble in NI.

NI voted to remain in the EU and apart from the border issues which, has the potential to undermine the Good Friday Agreement, NI is in receipt of a £58 million gain from the EU. So in fact NI has the most to lose after Brexit and in particular the agriculture sector.

Actually any money Northern Ireland gains from the EU is of course not EU money but ( as net contributors) British taxpayers money returned to Britain ( in this case Northern Ireland) after roughly 50% has been held back and handed over to fund other EU countries and the gold plated pay and perks handed over to to the Top Bods within the EU.


The EU has no money, it is our money returned after the deductions and is only allowed to be spent on projects authorised by the Eu and not freely, much of it requiring further match funding from us just to add insult to injury.
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Old 24th April 2018, 06:04   #48
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Hi bendrick for sure a huge gravy train for MEP's and their relatives and EU pensions, we the UK will be paying for within the divorce bill. Agree on the House of Lords £305 each a day for most of them to sleep.
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Old 24th April 2018, 08:13   #49
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The EU gravy train makes the one at Westminster look positively amateur I can assure you.


I worked for two different MEPs the first one on getting elected told me that he was ushered into a room on his first appearance in Brussels where two EU officials proceeded to lay out to him everything that he was entitled to.


One item was a 40,000 Euro a year office allowance for back in the UK which would be paid into his personal bank account, upon asking what happens then with that, as in, presumably he would at the end of the year produce receipts for what had been spent and return what was left of the 40,000 euros.

The two officials looked at each other in bewilderment then back at him and one of them said, no...no receipts, we just automatically pay the 40,000 Euros into your bank account and no one to our knowledge in the history of the parliament has ever returned any unspent money.


There is of course the 306 Euro per day tax free attendance allowance paid to MEPs in addition to their wages plus of course one of the most generous pension deals on the planet.

Most MEPs that I knew of rented flats, and a number shared these to save money
flats can be found at surprisingly cheap rents not far from the main EU building in Brussels and for instance the one that the MEP that I recently worked for was covered moneywise by approx 4 days expense claims per month the rest of the E306 per day for the rest of the month was of course bunce straight into the bank account.

Those MEPs sharing of course cleared even more.


Chuck into the mix free private health care, immunity from prosecution for many offences ( no need to worry about speeding in your remapped Rover if you're an MEP on the continent) Nice chauffer driven shiny black Mercedes to ferry you back and fore work. Special low income tax rates for EU officials.

And I'm sure that you're getting the picture.



Again, personally I would prefer to see this money spent on our own people who actually worked their guts out to raise this money but yet have to wait weeks for a doctors appointment or years for an operation here in the UK.



I also am friendly with a young chap of about 26 who is the son of two British EU officials who work in Luxembourg he was brought up there and attended a special school for the offspring of EU officials ( There is of course also an EU university). He detests the EU with a passion and told me that he very quickly realised that he and the other kids were being brainwashed during their education in regards to the 'State that is the EU' whilst in school. Living back in the UK he keeps in touch with a number of his former schoolmates and tells me that every single one now work as officials of the EU. It's a production line which a whole 'EU class' of people are ushered along it.

I am no conspiracy theorist but this really is sinister stuff and echoed much of my observations of the EU through personal experience.


It's Animal farm with knobs on basically.



Taiking of Luxembourg many people will not be aware that there is a large number of EU facilities there including a third chamber ( not used since 1981) it was originally intended to be yet another chamber used in rotation with Brussels and Strasbourg and has recently been the subject of a 500 million Euro refurbishment despite not being used. Many of the hundreds of staff based in Luxembourg are now paid large sums of money in wages and travel expenses to travel back and fore to Brussels and Strasbourg because their translation and administration facilities are not used in Luxembourg.


So next time you're stuck in A&E for 14 hours watching an OAP sleeping on a trolly because there are no beds available pehaps a thought can be cast for the money that OAP possibly paid in income tax during their working life which is now being handed over for such extravagance and waste to a political elite who are living the highlife on the back of decent ordinary hard working peoples toils.


Again not for me I'm afraid, and despite the details outlined above my one primary reason for despising the EU and everything it stands for is ( apart of course from the advice of the Russians who keep ringing me up telling me to vote leave)


Is the complete and utter lack of democracy.



I tend to despise most politicians, there must be a very small handful of decent ones out there somewhere I suppose, even some who started off fairly genuine before quickly become morally and financially corrupted.

But at least I like the idea of being able to vote them out before voting in another bunch who no doubt will turn out to be just as bad.


Which is impossible in the EU
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Old 27th April 2018, 14:18   #50
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Seems a bit, well distasteful to me.
The distasteful thing is that the Brexit vote was won with lies and deceit. Now that the truth of the decision is becoming clearer to voters they can see just how badly they were hoodwinked by the Leave campaign.

No plan, no morals, no hope. They all jumped ship afterwards when they realised the gravity of their mistake.

Now we're left with a Tory majority propped up by the DUP who lost the majority vote in NI. Who claim to want the same laws that apply in England to apply in NI........except of course when it's something they disagree with like abortion, gay marriage or evolution.
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