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Old 25th May 2016, 13:42   #41
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Originally Posted by HarryM1BYT View Post
The BBC are suggesting they have opened some web pages (?) to disseminate the truth from the myths and down right lies being propagated by both sides of the debate. How unbiased that might be, I don't know.
They did an article on the amount of money we pay in against the amount we get back. Presented by Charlie Stayt - made one think.

Pay in £361m/week.
Rebate £85m/week
Treasury £88m/week
Private sector money £27m/week
Cost £161m

To put this into context UK defence costs are some £851m/week, NHS and pensions are an awful lot more, sorry but I missed the figures on these – typing as it was on.
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Old 25th May 2016, 13:45   #42
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Originally Posted by bobthebuilder View Post
I have yet to receive my voting card.

I am clearly in a minority of one here, but in for a penny, in for a Euro.....

Leaving the Euro is utter, utter madness. If we do, we will become an isolated and irrelevant small country at the edge of Europe. Barred from contributing to any European decision making, and there will follow years of economic stagnation whilst the government does little but negotiate a never ending sequence of trade deals. And the Europeans will do everything in their power to stitch us up.

And apparently stating the truth about life outside the EU is scaremongering? Well wouldn't you rather know now than find out the hard way in a few years?

Whereas the totality of the Leave thinking is 'of course we can do it alone, we are British'.

People also forget the wide range of employment laws that are protected by EU legislation. You trust a Tory government to look after your best interests?

Will any more major industrial companies build factories in the UK knowing exports have to subject to TBD trade deals?

Think the French will care one hoot about the 'Jungle' at Calais if we leave the EU? They will see it as a UK problem and nothing to do with them anymore.

Tax reform will stall meaning it's even easier for Google etc to pay a pittance of UK tax.

The list goes on. And I've not heard of a single credible economic report stating any benefits of leaving.

Worst of all, if the Leave camp win, we get Boris 'self-interest' Johnson as PM!

We are stronger together, and I sincerely hope the Remain side wins. Over and out
No please don't leave BtB, it's alternative perspectives such as these which we need. So stay around eh?
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Old 25th May 2016, 15:23   #43
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We are stronger together, and I sincerely hope the Remain side wins. Over and out
The EU is falling apart anyway, best let us not be a part of it. We get inundated with legislation which is disadvantageous to the UK, some of them plainly just stupid, as if someone has a sole aim in life of creating silly rules.

We can 'do it alone', we always did until the Common Market. It offered us advantages back then, when we joined - now it doesn't, we just have a prospect to look forward to of supporting many much worse economies since the EU began its power crazed attempt to rule the entire world. We didn't elect them, we have almost no real power in the EU, yet we are the strongest nation in the EU. We are one of the smallest, but massively over populated - a country where all of the displaced people head for consuming our resources. The generous man of Europe, with few rules in place to dissuade them.

The EU needs us, much more than we need them.
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Old 25th May 2016, 15:33   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobthebuilder View Post
I have yet to receive my voting card.

I am clearly in a minority of one here, but in for a penny, in for a Euro.....

Leaving the Euro is utter, utter madness. If we do, we will become an isolated and irrelevant small country at the edge of Europe. Barred from contributing to any European decision making, and there will follow years of economic stagnation whilst the government does little but negotiate a never ending sequence of trade deals. And the Europeans will do everything in their power to stitch us up.

And apparently stating the truth about life outside the EU is scaremongering? Well wouldn't you rather know now than find out the hard way in a few years?

Whereas the totality of the Leave thinking is 'of course we can do it alone, we are British'.

People also forget the wide range of employment laws that are protected by EU legislation. You trust a Tory government to look after your best interests?

Will any more major industrial companies build factories in the UK knowing exports have to subject to TBD trade deals?

Think the French will care one hoot about the 'Jungle' at Calais if we leave the EU? They will see it as a UK problem and nothing to do with them anymore.

Tax reform will stall meaning it's even easier for Google etc to pay a pittance of UK tax.

The list goes on. And I've not heard of a single credible economic report stating any benefits of leaving.

Worst of all, if the Leave camp win, we get Boris 'self-interest' Johnson as PM!

We are stronger together, and I sincerely hope the Remain side wins. Over and out
Bob, You're not in a minority! Plenty on here feel the same way! In fact that’s pretty much how I felt at one time. Long before Cameron went on his crusade and came with an empty bag and then proceeded to lie about it. And continued ever since.

Even today, a new ‘report’ from the Institute of Fiscal Studies has burst in with massive backing for Cameron’s position. Heralded as the only really independent organ, when you look closer all isn’t what it seems.

All their earlier predictions were hopelessly wrong in essence, from the EMF to Greece they were wide of the mark. They are independent as far as being a study and research group, university based, and funded by Europe! See below opinions from both Left and Right commentators – direct quotes lifted from Wiki – to give a balanced view:

The Institute for Fiscal Studies frequently speaks out on politically important issues and has at different times been criticised from both sides of the political spectrum. In October 2010, the leader of the Lib Dems accused the IFS of using methods that were "distorted and a complete nonsense" after it challenged government claims that tax and benefit reforms in the June 2010 Budget were "progressive”.

Left-wing think tank Tax Research UK stated in a report that the "Institute for Fiscal Studies is a body that persistently recommends tax increases that benefit the wealthiest in society at cost to those who make their living from work and the poorest in society".

On another occasion, the right-leaning magazine The Spectator published a leader stating that Institutes funded by research grants (which means, usually, tax money) will always argue for more expensive meddling by the state and that the Institute for Fiscal Studies was "the most striking example" of this.

It’s true the Leave campaign hasn’t given any future view of how the economy will fare, because neither they nor anybody else can! But, every budget that Osborne has presided over has had to be redrawn shortly after implementation, some in a matter of weeks. It is all guesswork.

I suspect voting will to a large extent be for who the public feel is the most trustworthy and believable. In any case, as things stand, whatever the result there will be no immediate change of government. So no civil unrest, plagues, or insurrection!
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Old 25th May 2016, 16:28   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wraymond View Post
Bob, You're not in a minority! Plenty on here feel the same way! In fact that’s pretty much how I felt at one time. Long before Cameron went on his crusade and came with an empty bag and then proceeded to lie about it. And continued ever since.

Even today, a new ‘report’ from the Institute of Fiscal Studies has burst in with massive backing for Cameron’s position. Heralded as the only really independent organ, when you look closer all isn’t what it seems.

All their earlier predictions were hopelessly wrong in essence, from the EMF to Greece they were wide of the mark. They are independent as far as being a study and research group, university based, and funded by Europe! See below opinions from both Left and Right commentators – direct quotes lifted from Wiki – to give a balanced view:

The Institute for Fiscal Studies frequently speaks out on politically important issues and has at different times been criticised from both sides of the political spectrum. In October 2010, the leader of the Lib Dems accused the IFS of using methods that were "distorted and a complete nonsense" after it challenged government claims that tax and benefit reforms in the June 2010 Budget were "progressive”.

Left-wing think tank Tax Research UK stated in a report that the "Institute for Fiscal Studies is a body that persistently recommends tax increases that benefit the wealthiest in society at cost to those who make their living from work and the poorest in society".

On another occasion, the right-leaning magazine The Spectator published a leader stating that Institutes funded by research grants (which means, usually, tax money) will always argue for more expensive meddling by the state and that the Institute for Fiscal Studies was "the most striking example" of this.

It’s true the Leave campaign hasn’t given any future view of how the economy will fare, because neither they nor anybody else can! But, every budget that Osborne has presided over has had to be redrawn shortly after implementation, some in a matter of weeks. It is all guesswork.

I suspect voting will to a large extent be for who the public feel is the most trustworthy and believable. In any case, as things stand, whatever the result there will be no immediate change of government.

So no civil unrest, plagues, or insurrection!
What no plagues? I was looking forward to seeing a pox on all their houses!
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Old 25th May 2016, 17:18   #46
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Depends where you live whether or not you get the official government leaflet. Only 9 million government leaflets when there's a lot more households. Local Tory activist told me but I cannot confirm, if you live in a "safe" Tory seat you won't get a leaflet because they believe you are guaranteed to vote to stay in.
Whatever the case, I'm not happy that my tax payments are being used to promote a biased view from a PM who promised a balanced referendum.
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Old 25th May 2016, 17:35   #47
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Originally Posted by alanjay View Post
Depends where you live whether or not you get the official government leaflet. Only 9 million government leaflets when there's a lot more households. Local Tory activist told me but I cannot confirm, if you live in a "safe" Tory seat you won't get a leaflet because they believe you are guaranteed to vote to stay in.
Whatever the case, I'm not happy that my tax payments are being used to promote a biased view from a PM who promised a balanced referendum.
We had ours, safe Tory seat too.
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Old 25th May 2016, 17:40   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanjay View Post
Depends where you live whether or not you get the official government leaflet. Only 9 million government leaflets when there's a lot more households. Local Tory activist told me but I cannot confirm, if you live in a "safe" Tory seat you won't get a leaflet because they believe you are guaranteed to vote to stay in.
Whatever the case, I'm not happy that my tax payments are being used to promote a biased view from a PM who promised a balanced referendum.
We had ours so I sent it back to the Tory party headquarters address that a member posted about, no stamp obviously
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Old 25th May 2016, 17:49   #49
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We joined in the 70's a 'Common market' and gradually over the years this has morphed into the EU, none of which was voted for in that referendum, it has often been said that the long term goal is an ever closer union, political and financial and that's a fact, that is what the eurocrats are going for, a slow creeping takeover of decision making!
Parliament will remain but end up as a rubber stamp for EU 'Directives'
I for one do not believe one word about the further guarantees and opt outs promised if we remain, they will find a way round all the promises and opt outs when they feel the need, the EU is a millstone around our necks.

Who will be next to be wheeled out from the list of world leaders to tell us how to vote eh!
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Old 25th May 2016, 18:03   #50
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How it is viewed from across the pond:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...87d_story.html

If you miss the links:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...html?tid=a_inl

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ans/?tid=a_inl

Last edited by Borg Warner; 25th May 2016 at 18:08..
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