Obama warning.

[Trisman]

the side of "Remain" seem intent on rather 'scare mongering'.

...And it seems like the 'out' campaign answer every point made by the 'remain' campaign as 'scaremongering'.

Bit like the Scotland independence campaign... Anything said by the 'No' campaign was automatically 'scaremongering'. Where are some answers?

As for Obama, why should the Yanks be compelled to undertake two sets of negotiations over a trade deal, plus the concerns about security etc? Obama has a duty to act in what he regards as the best interest of the USA.

Don't get me wrong though. I am far from being a fan of the EU. It's a corrupt mess!!

Thing is, it ain't going to go away & being part of it & fighting for reform is (IMHO anyway) preferable to throwing the toys out of the pram & running away to god knows what future...!

Besides, many of the 'out' arguments can be summarised by quoting some guy who is in favour of leaving:

"If Britain doesn't vote to leave the EU, I'm moving to Spain!".

[DragonFly]

Originally Posted by Trisman

...And it seems like the 'out' campaign answer every point made by the 'remain' campaign as 'scaremongering'.

Oh, I'm sure there's scaremongering on both sides, but it seems that the 'remain' campaigners are better at it.

Originally Posted by Trisman

Bit like the Scotland independence campaign... Anything said by the 'No' campaign was automatically 'scaremongering'. Where are some answers?

I think a lot of what both sides said in the Scottish independence debate made sense, although there was a lot of 'doom & gloom' on both sides of the fence.

Originally Posted by Trisman

As for Obama, why should the Yanks be compelled to undertake two sets of negotiations over a trade deal, plus the concerns about security etc? Obama has a duty to act in what he regards as the best interest of the USA.

The yanks aren't "compelled" to do anything. And as for the "concerns about security", this country would actually be more secure outside of the EU than we are within it as we'd have full control over our borders and the last word on who's allowed in and who isn't.

And as for military security (in case that was what you meant), we'd still be a full member of NATO. So I don't think that would be too much of a problem.

Originally Posted by Trisman

Don't get me wrong though. I am far from being a fan of the EU. It's a corrupt mess!!

Difficult, if not impossible to argue with that

Originally Posted by Trisman

Thing is, it ain't going to go away & being part of it & fighting for reform is (IMHO anyway) preferable to throwing the toys out of the pram & running away to god knows what future...!

Sometimes, even an uncertain future could be preferable to a known one though.

Taking 2015 as an example. The UK paid £13 Billion to the EU, and got back in subsidies/spending £4.5 Billion. Which means a net contribution to the EU of £8.5 Billion.

To put that into perspective, the whole policing budget for 2015 was £10 Billion (give or take) after facing massive cuts. Even if we subsidised in exactly the same way as the EU does. Imagine what difference that extra £8.5 Billion a year could make to the UK deficit or on public spending.

The problem with trying to negotiate reform is that it'd most likely be 27 votes against, 1 for. We'd need (under the treaty of Nice agreement) 74% of the votes to be in favour of reform before it could happen. That's unlikely even under the best of circumstances. Although we have an equal share of the voting weight (8.4%) as Germany, France and Italy. I think it would be neigh on impossible to have any motion that was seen to unfairly benefit the UK carried by the council of Europe.

Originally Posted by Trisman

Besides, many of the 'out' arguments can be summarised by quoting some guy who is in favour of leaving:

"If Britain doesn't vote to leave the EU, I'm moving to Spain!".

Well, there's no accounting for idiots, and there's always one!

[The Rovering Member]

We keep being told that there is no model for Brexit, as if time only started forty years ago. And that it's a giant leap into the unknown when the human race has only evolved by taking those leaps.
There may be uncertainty about leaving but there is less about staying as in that case the EU will take it as carte blanche to carry on exactly as they have been since day one.

[jackatesme]

A good point was brought up on a recent news broadcast. " A few weeks ago Cameron gave a proposal to the EU that if they rejected his request for concessions then the UK would leave the EU",now he his telling everyone what a disaster it would be if we left. I think he must have passed a note under the table " only joking".

[Trisman]

The problem with trying to negotiate reform is that it'd most likely be 27 votes against, 1 for. We'd need (under the treaty of Nice agreement) 74% of the votes to be in favour of reform before it could happen. That's unlikely even under the best of circumstances. Although we have an equal share of the voting weight (8.4%) as Germany, France and Italy. I think it would be neigh on impossible to have any motion that was seen to unfairly benefit the UK carried by the council of Europe.

So, post-Brexit, can you imagine the negotiations required to gain the benefits of the bits of the EU we (apparently?) approve of, i.e.: Trade, freedom to live & work in Europe, etc., whilst we reject the bits we object to?

A lot of pro-Brexit campaigner seem to forget that the EU is comprised of a set of nations who all have their own agendas & desires for what they'll get from the EU.

This is all part of the 'mess' I referred to.

Many are already fed-up of the British & lets face it, they'll probably be happy to see us go!

What incentive is there for these nations to embark on years of negotiations about the fate of (what would be) a competitor nation to the rEU?

There are so many unknowns (many are unknowable until after Brexit anyway!).

Scotland's future is one such unknown.

We could hardly deny them another vote about self-determination when that is exactly the reason (supposedly?) for the Brexit referendum in the first place!

Then, what about NI and their relationship with the (border free..) Republic?

I don't say this with an sense of enthusiasm for Europe or glee.

It's basically that I happen to honestly believe:
1. The unknowns could be catastrophic for the UK.
2. Some of the reasons for leaving the EU are ludicrous & based on Daily Mail style ignorance & distortion.

Regards 2. there are valid reasons to leave (outweighed by the reasons to stay IMHO), but siting immigration, border control or (sigh) 'bent banana'-type over-regulation as being compelling reasons is a nonsense.


As this is a motoring forum, here's a classic example:

You might be aware of the draconian changes going through the vehicle registration process as-applied to custom-built cars, recreated classics & cars returned to the road after a long absence of a V5c.

It's being blamed on the EU.

Because: the EU decided to start the process of regularising vehicle registration processes. So, it's their fault, clearly.

Except that the EU had told the UK to get on with the process as we saw fit. It was going to be a continuation of the existing 'points' system & IVA's/SVA's for anything that didn't fit into that.

But then various UK organisations got involved & threw their ten-pence worth into the mix.
The consolation process became a war zone.
As a result, the whole well-establish and understood process is out the window & a cobbled together mess is now (apparently?) going to be in place, all because we in the UK decided to mess with what had worked just fine up to now. It was nothing to do with the EU!

One consequence is that people are finding their car's road-legal status is withdrawn (V5c cancelled) & a full SVA test is needed before the car can be re-registered.
Can you imagine trying to get (say) a Bentley Blue-train recreation or even a MK2 Jag through an SVA?


Anyhoo, there is a history to this.

More often than not, UK government (in its various forms, usually UK bureaucracy) is hugely enthusiastic about applying 'EU' regulations. It's all a part of Whitehall's power games. More often than not, we apply regs. with far more rigour than even the Germans.

The Italians, on the other hand, declare their beaches clean & go for a nice meal with a fine Chianti & some Fava beans...
(Whereas we would put Donkey-men out of business because of 'EU regulations'..!).

I'm not saying that's fair or reasonable, but do you seriously think Mediterranean beaches are really cleaner than Cornwall's?


Then the Daily Fail gets hold of it & we end up with a referendum that seems to be (basically..) about not liking those foreign looking types & ill-defined concerns about Sovereignty....

(No offence intended. I'm sure these 'foreign-type' sentiments don't apply to this forum as a whole, which seems pretty sensible & moderate in the short time I've been here!).

As for the US involvement in the form of Obama, it's perhaps ironic to reflect on the fact that the USA is: A federation of States.
(As in: The United States of America...!).

Better the Devil you know...?

[KWIL]

We were conned by Heath and all concerned to get us into the "Common Market" when they knew there was a politcal undertone to Federalise ASAP.

By all means back to the devil we know, I do not trust Westminster that much and there is no way I will ever trust Brussels.

That nut Mandelson said on TV recently "we are there in the European Parliament" we can vote and influence matters and be part of the decisions Oh dear outvoted again.

Would the last person to leave Brussels please turn off the light.

I am for leaving and have been for the last 40 years, whatever is said now.

[wraymond]

[QUOTE=Trisman;2272799]
1. So, post-Brexit, can you imagine the negotiations required to gain the benefits of the bits of the EU we (apparently?) approve of, i.e.: Trade, freedom to live & work in Europe, etc., whilst we reject the bits we object to?

2. Many are already fed-up of the British & lets face it, they'll probably be happy to see us go!


3. There are so many unknowns (many are unknowable until after Brexit anyway!).

4. Scotland's future is one such unknown.


:/QUOTE]

1. I don’t think this applies. ‘Trade’ refers to commerce, not to live and work there. To export goods to there and import from. The rest they can keep. We retain all our own laws/regulations/human rights etc. More importantly we can alter all that as we here please without having to seek the approval of 27 other disparate States. We retain our traditional territorial limits on fishing (among others) – now defunct industries revitalised.

2. So no delay there then! Seriously, there is much sympathy for what the British want to see changed, several States are now raising serious objections in the light of our position. Years of negs? No need, Out is Out. Trade deals will follow in the fullness of time.

3. Yes, there are unknowns. What is more important is the currently known and hated corruption and mismanagement of our present position of being told what to do and how to live by other, forgive me but it’s true, relatively third world economies that we are required to contribute to. There are yet more such States queuing up to join so our ‘contributions’ are guaranteed to rise disproportionately.

4. Scotland is the questionable loss. The SNP would be fighting tooth and nail for a new referendum and impossible to refuse. I suspect though it might be a very different flavour the second time around.

*** The Daily Mail always gets the blame. It’s not ignorant, it’s very much in the know. Anybody who only takes their news feed from one source is a fool.

On your opening point: after many, maybe too many, years around and under classic cars and seeing the ham-fisted so-called repairs executed, and I use that word on purpose, the need for a tightened up regime regarding testing is long overdue.

It is true many afficionados are skilled and efficient mechanics but more aren’t. It’s never the skilfully done repairs that kill, it’s the idiots trying to save a few pounds that take chances where ineptness triumphs over ability that they are trying to force in to being sensible. A typical case of the many being penalised because of the reckless few.

On the wider point about playing by the rules: if it’s a choice of playing the game as it’s meant to be and having the right to pull up others that don’t, it’s worth it! We have a hard fought reputation and we are in a club that laughs at us for it. The answer is to copy others and backslide? No chance! Standards, man!

[alanjay]

Originally Posted by jackatesme

He obviously did not attend history classes in school, otherwise he would know of the the American war of independence.

He's obviously desperate to keep the "special relationship" with the UK, the one where we do what they want and they don't care about what we want!

I'm getting out of here before it breaks club rules and becomes political.

[jonno12]

EU leaflet returned to:
Freepost
10 Downing Street ... Etc
already posted mine!!

[TR75]

Originally Posted by jonno12

EU leaflet returned to:
Freepost
10 Downing Street ... Etc
already posted mine!!

At least you got one.

Didn't get anything here in the depths of Cornwall. Obviously we're a lost cause...

Shame really, could have done with a bit more paper to light our wood burner with.