Cannabis and Driving - Page 6

RobSun · 1st December 2019, 13:00

This website says gateway drugs include cannabis alcohol and tobacco and all of these drugs could lead to coke heroin etc use and addiction.
All I will say is how many of those who have posted or reading this who use or have used tobacco, and or alcohol now are addicted to hard drugs? I suspect many many more users of these substances than cannabis and probably very few if any are addicted to hard drugs. How many consider themselves at risk of becoming junkies? If we accept the premise then most of you who bought a ciggie off the ice cream man should be.

wraymond · 1st December 2019, 20:38

Claiming cannabis is a gateway drug does not in itself imply a causing of an addictive nature, although regular habitual use may indeed do that. Dependency arises from more than one direct cause.

It merely implies an acceptance of it becoming a norm to use such substances makes its effects a fact of social behaviour, inviting the next step to the new experience of 'harder' drugs.

For instance, there is no doubt about tobacco being instrumental in lung cancer, there is more than enough hard evidence for that so who would recommend it now? Even if the prognosis for a gateway effect was wrong, similarities with early tobacco experiences are unavoidable.

As it happens and purely by coincidence I read in today's news that in the journal of the American Medical Association there is an account by scientists that:

"Regular marijuana use (was) associated with development of testicular germ cell tumours". And: "Sustained marijuana use may increase the risk for testicular cancer". They calculated that long-term cannabis users were 36% more likely to have developed cancer than similar men who did not use the drug.

Their researchers came to the conclusion those pushing to legalise recreational cannabis use sometimes suggest cannabis' compounds have cancer-fighting properties. That sounds like a very improbable get-out clause.

Amazingly, each year around 2400 UK men, half of them under 35, get testicular cancer. Obviously that does not mean that all of them take cannabis. What demographic has the biggest use of cannabis?
This takes us some way from the gateway principle in the context of this thread - but - reason enough?

RobSun · 2nd December 2019, 11:53

The increased cancer risk was a point that I mentioned in my post and research would also suggest that it increases the risk of lung cancer above that level of risk associated with tobacco. It is thought that the particulate and chemicals released from cannabis exacerbate those already in tobacco.

WE all know the devastating damage that can be caused by alcohol to our bodies and the social problems caused. Tobacco also has its heavy risks that cannabis can increase. Both of those drugs are controlled, although control is avoided by some, and large taxes are raised. If cannabis was also legal manufacture would be regulated, the criminal element reduced with less chances of dealers pushing harder drugs on to those who are susceptible to taking them. Taxes would be paid some of which could be used to in helping with the health effects. Reducing the amount of time spent by the police in dealing with what is now a generally accepted social drug would free them up to deal with other issue's.

Avulon · 2nd December 2019, 12:00

This thread no longer appears to be about cannabis and driving by any stretch of the imagination. It appears to have descended into a very limited debate with little to recommend it.

wraymond · 2nd December 2019, 15:21

I regret you see no reason to have this thread open and suggest the % of drug related posts stemming from driving convictions directly attributed to prosecutions and the loss of driving licences is not minimal and is therefore valid.

It so happens there is further copy in reputable sources today on this subject. I offered an example which I knew contained some statements to the contrary of my view to show I wasn't afraid of contesting evidence, but that seems to fall foul of open debate. However, argument has for once been moderate and that in itself is a blessing!

Gate Keeper · 6th December 2019, 03:51

Last Christmas whilst on safari, one of our campers revealed he is on cannabis for intractable pain. He had been on high doses of opiates following a botched lumbar puncture procedure. To get him on the right dose of cannabis, he went for 2 weeks to a health farm in Kenya so that he could be titrated. He doesn’t smoke it, it goes into his food. As a consequence he is pain free, drives a 4x4 and he is not living like a zombie like he was on opiates. For himself, the change from opiates to cannabis has been life changing for the better. He works as a lawyer.

RobSun · 6th December 2019, 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by wraymond

True Clive, but it's not the plant - it's the chemist and the promise of riches!

The main argument in legalisation to get rid of the criminals and do proper research into its now well known benefits for several health conditions.

Do you realise also that the biggest legal grower for medical cannabis in Europe is in England. We produce it for other countries to use in their legal medicines that are banned in this country. One of the directors of this company, a subsidiary of very well known major name on the high street, is the husband of a government minister in this last one. She voted against its use in the UK but its ok for hubby to make millions out of it.

Think of that what you may.

wraymond · 6th December 2019, 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobSun

The main argument in legalisation to get rid of the criminals and do proper research into its now well known benefits for several health conditions.

Do you realise also that the biggest legal grower for medical cannabis in Europe is in England. We produce it for other countries to use in their legal medicines that are banned in this country. One of the directors of this company, a subsidiary of very well known major name on the high street, is the husband of a government minister in this last one. She voted against its use in the UK but its ok for hubby to make millions out of it.

Think of that what you may.

Thanks Robs, yes I knew about the faux main argument, nothing like attaching a social imperative to a questionable project to get it accepted!

Oh, and it's not the health aspects that should be questioned, it's the legalisation for the manufacture, distribution and resale for indiscriminate use that will undoubtedly result. That can only be seen to further what was once a crime then being unrecorded by police. Death by a thousand cuts comes to mind.

I also knew about the vested interests of lying duplicitous politicos with sleeping partners in strategic positions! Rather makes the point about the lack of believable ethics in the governing classes - we take the hit and they take the money/position/indemnity/future employment prospects while evading all responsibility.

Avulon · 7th December 2019, 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by wraymond

That can only be seen to further what was once a crime then being unrecorded by police. Death by a thousand cuts comes to mind.

Have been watching... Going to interject here on this one point. Many things used to be illegal that are now legal. Various Acts of parliament are repealed all the time either to legalise some activities or to be replaced by other acts. Other times acts of parliament are made to decriminalise activities. So there are plenty of 'was once a crime' activities that are not a crime now.

wraymond · 7th December 2019, 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avulon

Have been watching... Going to interject here on this one point. Many things used to be illegal that are now legal. Various Acts of parliament are repealed all the time either to legalise some activities or to be replaced by other acts. Other times acts of parliament are made to decriminalise activities. So there are plenty of 'was once a crime' activities that are not a crime now.

Couldn't agree more! Hence my 'death by a thousand cuts'. It's all a question of balance. Unfortunately, and this is now happening every day, those that can shout loudest and pretend to a noble aim, effectively discourage dissent or objection by social shaming for daring to stick their hand in the air to speak. The effect is to seek to crush objection using virtue waving techniques but having little real support. Glad we agree though!

1st December 2019, 20:38	#52
wraymond This is my second home 75 Auto 2.5 SE Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Westcliff on Sea Posts: 5,185 Thanks: 423 Thanked 1,680 Times in 1,014 Posts	Claiming cannabis is a gateway drug does not in itself imply a causing of an addictive nature, although regular habitual use may indeed do that. Dependency arises from more than one direct cause. It merely implies an acceptance of it becoming a norm to use such substances makes its effects a fact of social behaviour, inviting the next step to the new experience of 'harder' drugs. For instance, there is no doubt about tobacco being instrumental in lung cancer, there is more than enough hard evidence for that so who would recommend it now? Even if the prognosis for a gateway effect was wrong, similarities with early tobacco experiences are unavoidable. As it happens and purely by coincidence I read in today's news that in the journal of the American Medical Association there is an account by scientists that: "Regular marijuana use (was) associated with development of testicular germ cell tumours". And: "Sustained marijuana use may increase the risk for testicular cancer". They calculated that long-term cannabis users were 36% more likely to have developed cancer than similar men who did not use the drug. Their researchers came to the conclusion those pushing to legalise recreational cannabis use sometimes suggest cannabis' compounds have cancer-fighting properties. That sounds like a very improbable get-out clause. Amazingly, each year around 2400 UK men, half of them under 35, get testicular cancer. Obviously that does not mean that all of them take cannabis. What demographic has the biggest use of cannabis? This takes us some way from the gateway principle in the context of this thread - but - reason enough? __________________ member no. 235 Last edited by wraymond; 1st December 2019 at 20:51..

2nd December 2019, 12:00	#54
Avulon This is my second home 1.8t Tourer Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tanelorn Posts: 4,830 Thanks: 956 Thanked 1,148 Times in 916 Posts	This thread no longer appears to be about cannabis and driving by any stretch of the imagination. It appears to have descended into a very limited debate with little to recommend it. __________________ Need a T4 ?: T4 Owners Map thanks to Stevestrat ( use at your own risk) Where?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanelorn Mods/Retrofits: PCV vortex 'filter'; bluetooth; inline thermostat; reversing sensors; plenum spyhole ; headlamp washers ; Diy mp3 player replacing CD multichanger; FBH with remote; Headlamp washers; black/chrome front grille, rear blind; Xenon projectors To do: puddle lights; 2 Din cd/nav to fit; boot release button

2nd December 2019, 15:21	#55
wraymond This is my second home 75 Auto 2.5 SE Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Westcliff on Sea Posts: 5,185 Thanks: 423 Thanked 1,680 Times in 1,014 Posts	I regret you see no reason to have this thread open and suggest the % of drug related posts stemming from driving convictions directly attributed to prosecutions and the loss of driving licences is not minimal and is therefore valid. It so happens there is further copy in reputable sources today on this subject. I offered an example which I knew contained some statements to the contrary of my view to show I wasn't afraid of contesting evidence, but that seems to fall foul of open debate. However, argument has for once been moderate and that in itself is a blessing! __________________ member no. 235 Last edited by wraymond; 2nd December 2019 at 15:34..

1st December 2019, 13:00	#51
RobSun Gets stuck in MGZTT Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Bradford Posts: 529 Thanks: 148 Thanked 256 Times in 138 Posts	This website says gateway drugs include cannabis alcohol and tobacco and all of these drugs could lead to coke heroin etc use and addiction. All I will say is how many of those who have posted or reading this who use or have used tobacco, and or alcohol now are addicted to hard drugs? I suspect many many more users of these substances than cannabis and probably very few if any are addicted to hard drugs. How many consider themselves at risk of becoming junkies? If we accept the premise then most of you who bought a ciggie off the ice cream man should be.

2nd December 2019, 11:53	#53
RobSun Gets stuck in MGZTT Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Bradford Posts: 529 Thanks: 148 Thanked 256 Times in 138 Posts	The increased cancer risk was a point that I mentioned in my post and research would also suggest that it increases the risk of lung cancer above that level of risk associated with tobacco. It is thought that the particulate and chemicals released from cannabis exacerbate those already in tobacco. WE all know the devastating damage that can be caused by alcohol to our bodies and the social problems caused. Tobacco also has its heavy risks that cannabis can increase. Both of those drugs are controlled, although control is avoided by some, and large taxes are raised. If cannabis was also legal manufacture would be regulated, the criminal element reduced with less chances of dealers pushing harder drugs on to those who are susceptible to taking them. Taxes would be paid some of which could be used to in helping with the health effects. Reducing the amount of time spent by the police in dealing with what is now a generally accepted social drug would free them up to deal with other issue's.

6th December 2019, 03:51	#56
Gate Keeper This is my second home 4X4 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Nairobi Posts: 20,056 Thanks: 8,286 Thanked 7,017 Times in 4,160 Posts	Last Christmas whilst on safari, one of our campers revealed he is on cannabis for intractable pain. He had been on high doses of opiates following a botched lumbar puncture procedure. To get him on the right dose of cannabis, he went for 2 weeks to a health farm in Kenya so that he could be titrated. He doesn’t smoke it, it goes into his food. As a consequence he is pain free, drives a 4x4 and he is not living like a zombie like he was on opiates. For himself, the change from opiates to cannabis has been life changing for the better. He works as a lawyer.