Diesel refusing to start

[Arctic]

Originally Posted by Jamiewelch

I was asked to plug a T4 in, not for doing full none starting diagnostics. LP was reading less than 200kpa and the in tank pump was dead. HP wasn't getting above 20000kpa, it needs over 30000kpa to start. Battery also died on the car while reading live data so couldn't do any more. Rev counter was moving whilst cranking. I also didn't say that the failed pump was the only issue, that needed to be replaced before further testing could be done, could have hoped it was the only issue but it obviously isn't.

There is a huge difference between paying for a T4 to be plugged in and for full diagnosis of a fault. Diagnosis needs to be charged at an hourly rate by a garage that have the means to pull injectors out and bench test then etc. Can't really do much more when the fuel pressures are too low for the injectors to fire and then the battery dies.

My advice is get the car to a garage with the means to do more testing. Plugging the T4 in identified that the ITFP was dead and not providing the front end enough pressure to even attempt to fire up. This needed replacing to start looking at the next issue.

Nice to see you offer to do the 70 mile round trip on short notice to plug a T4 in just to see what is happening.

People need to understand, there is a big difference between asking someone to plug a T4 in, and doing full diagnostics of an issue. A none starting issue can take hours and hours to diagnose. Might even have to resort to pulling glow plugs to do a compression test.

Hi Jamie.
Which part is rude? or what part do you find rude? is it the part about getting your hands dirty.

I don't need to understand anything between the difference of being asked to plug a T4 in and doing a full diagnosis, as it makes common sense to me that if you are either asked for help, or have voluntary offered to help, it's best to have spare parts with you.

At the end of the day we are trying to help him get back on the road, give him a ring and speak to him, see how he feels you maybe to able to resolve it for him.

As for traveling to see him that would not faze me, and i have talked to him on the phone, but at the moment i don't want to tread on your toes, so help via the forum and phone will suffice, i/we are not saying you have done wrong or failed to diagnose properly it's just he is stuck.

[BigRuss]

LP of 116 kpa is enough to start the car so 200kpa is adequate but less than ideal it should be mid 300's on a two pump system. It probably wouldn't rev too much but would at least start.

Looking at cranking pressure on VT4 (real T4 loses comms when cranking unless it's plugged into the mains) is a bit hit and miss sometimes you get an accurate reading sometimes you don't, it often takes a few tries to get the highest reading but it's a bit difficult if the battery is failling. I've had cars that have only produced 26,000kpa on the HP side that have run quite happily.

The thing then of course to look for is how many amps the high pressure regulator is pulling at both ignition position 2 and then cranking if they're not giving the correct readings then the fuel regulator is possibly sticking.

The problem with T4 on a diesel is that often on a non starter it will tell you very little and sometimes nothing at all. No faults logged and all readings normal.

That's when you have to start getting involved getting a meter out, checking appropriate voltages and getting the leak back test kit out to see what's happening there too.

There's many reasons why the diesels won't start, there's some really strange ones. Going to see a non-starter I usually go with everything I could possibly need. Otherwise you'll not get it going unless you're prepared to make another journey.

I often carry a spare battery too especially if the customer can't get it on a charger beforehand

If you're lucky then great you can find and fix it in no time, but otherwise it can be a few hours, sometimes cold and wet or in sub zero temperatures with inches of snow. But that's what it takes sometimes to get people back on the road.

Russ

[Mike Noc]

Maybe try swapping the cam sensor for a known good one, if only to rule it out.

[swifty62]

Originally Posted by swifty62

Hi All,i have a problem with starting the car,it cranks but won’t start,i had a T4 from Jamie,who diagnosed a failed ITFP, and so I replaced that with a new one, and that, didn’t make any difference, the UBFP seems to work ok, but have no means of testing the pressure,also there is plenty of fuel in the tank,what other things do I need to check, as I don’t want to waste money,on parts, that I don’t need, I know threads like this one, have been posted, many times, and I have read most of them, but it could be something quite simple,i will appreciate any suggestions,you come up with, I’m desperate to get it back on the road, thanks Ian.

Massive thank you, to Steve Arctic, for spending time and effort, trying different parts, until finally diagnosing a faulty E,C,U, and then contacting mariabrian,the ECU was then posted off to Brian,who then made good, due to water ingress, the car is now back on the road, and I’m over the moon can’t thank these two guys enough, and hope to bump into one, or both of them, at the next NANO meet, in Sept, I salute both of you.

[Arctic]

Hi Ian
Thank you for the acknowledgement post6 above for me & Brian, as you now i came over to you on the 4th August to help with trying to find the fault why the car would not start after changing the ITP.

I cam with a few parts which if needed we could change out.
UBP.
Fuel Filter.
Low pressure sensor.
Injectors.
Cam & Crank sensors.
Glow plug relay.
Regulator HPFP O-ring kit.
Leak back test kit.
Contact cleaner.
Engine start.
Multimeter.
T4
1

2

3

4

Again as you know once i arrived about 10.00am unpacked the T4 first to clear the historical faults.

5

6

Took quick look at fault explorer.
7

8

Cleared all the faults, then we tried to start the car to see what faults would be thrown up after the clearing of historical faults.

DDE4.0 EMS ECU.

Fault code 1of 4
4

I said to you that does not look good for a start off

Open fault explorer.
5

We more or less are sure now that it's the ECU but still do further findings.
6

So from there we still go through our physical tests, ie swap out the fuel filter mainly because it had not been changed for 5yrs.

Also swap out the low pressure sensor on top of the filter.

Tried to start the car even though we more or less knew it was not going to start, again clearing the faults.

Then the cam sensor just eliminate that from our tests, try starting again, no go clear faults.

Then we check wiring under the engine fuse box and it's connectors, again no start, clear faults.

Next we came to our last test, injector leak back, cranking the car knowing it was not going to start, but it gave us reading of injectors, all within the 20mm number two the worst if you can call it that.
7

Put it all back together clear faults.

Try starting the car for the last time to see what faults are now showing, seems we are back to square one what we saw at 10.20am etc, this some two hours plus after, but at last we had covered the above fault finding tests.
8

All still pointing to the ECU.
9

10

Looking into fault explorer which showed what it could be, saying low pressure sensor reading implausible.

Lack of fuel supply no as we tested the ITP working ok, blockage or pump failure no.

Low pressure fuel sensor, No we changed it along with the fuel filter.

Which only left the DDE4.0 ECM
10

4 of 4 faults.
11

Check fault explorer for the above.
12

13

We know that the car is never ever going to start, as the ECU is corrupted, through damp or something else, we then remove the ECU and found 6 pins in the large connector to be a bit rusty corroded.

Now here is wear i fell down, as i forgot to bring with me my spare ECU, EWS, and key set with transponder, if i had remembered that we could of hooked it up and the car would have most likely started.

It's then that i said to Ian i will contact Brian when i get back home and see if he will take a look at it for you, as i was informed Brian had done the 160 upgrade a few years before.

Early that evening of 4th August i contacted Brian whom got straight back to me, i gave him my finding and he said right away.

Steve the ECM has been wet, it has destroyed the 95P08 eeprom and the main processor.

This is why you're unable to resynchronise the security seed between the DDE4 and the EWS 3 i can sort it out but i will need the EWS3 in addition to the DDE4 in order to do that.

Then went on to explain something else which does not need to be posted here, sending a couple of photo showing the culprits on the ECU board.

Relayed all this back to Ian whom then over the next few days had to purchase a security Torx 5 pin bit, to remove the EWS3 and send it along with the ECU to Brian.

This was done by Ian, and as Brian put it to me after he received it, did the work and with a quick tickle of the magic wand all was good he kept it on his car tested for a few days running on his car, sent it back to Ian.

Once Ian received it back and he replaced into the case and into the plenum where it lives, not a great place as all know but hey ho, he started the car right away and is now a very happy R40 owner again.

So all good in the Rover owners land

[BigRuss]

Good thorough work there Steve.

Big give away there though, was the Microprocessor error and Eeprom error, once a DDE4 has got those, it's toast and the only remedy is generally replacement

Russ

[swifty62]

Originally Posted by Arctic

Hi Ian
Thank you for the acknowledgement post6 above for me & Brian, as you now i came over to you on the 4th August to help with trying to find the fault why the car would not start after changing the ITP.

I cam with a few parts which if needed we could change out.
UBP.
Fuel Filter.
Low pressure sensor.
Injectors.
Cam & Crank sensors.
Glow plug relay.
Regulator HPFP O-ring kit.
Leak back test kit.
Contact cleaner.
Engine start.
Multimeter.
T4
1

2

3

4

Again as you know once i arrived about 10.00am unpacked the T4 first to clear the historical faults.

5

6

Took quick look at fault explorer.
7

8

Cleared all the faults, then we tried to start the car to see what faults would be thrown up after the clearing of historical faults.

DDE4.0 EMS ECU.

Fault code 1of 4
4

I said to you that does not look good for a start off

Open fault explorer.
5

We more or less are sure now that it's the ECU but still do further findings.
6

So from there we still go through our physical tests, ie swap out the fuel filter mainly because it had not been changed for 5yrs.

Also swap out the low pressure sensor on top of the filter.

Tried to start the car even though we more or less knew it was not going to start, again clearing the faults.

Then the cam sensor just eliminate that from our tests, try starting again, no go clear faults.

Then we check wiring under the engine fuse box and it's connectors, again no start, clear faults.

Next we came to our last test, injector leak back, cranking the car knowing it was not going to start, but it gave us reading of injectors, all within the 20mm number two the worst if you can call it that.
7

Put it all back together clear faults.

Try starting the car for the last time to see what faults are now showing, seems we are back to square one what we saw at 10.20am etc, this some two hours plus after, but at last we had covered the above fault finding tests.
8

All still pointing to the ECU.
9

10

Looking into fault explorer which showed what it could be, saying low pressure sensor reading implausible.

Lack of fuel supply no as we tested the ITP working ok, blockage or pump failure no.

Low pressure fuel sensor, No we changed it along with the fuel filter.

Which only left the DDE4.0 ECM
10

4 of 4 faults.
11

Check fault explorer for the above.
12

13

We know that the car is never ever going to start, as the ECU is corrupted, through damp or something else, we then remove the ECU and found 6 pins in the large connector to be a bit rusty corroded.

Now here is wear i fell down, as i forgot to bring with me my spare ECU, EWS, and key set with transponder, if i had remembered that we could of hooked it up and the car would have most likely started.

It's then that i said to Ian i will contact Brian when i get back home and see if he will take a look at it for you, as i was informed Brian had done the 160 upgrade a few years before.

Early that evening of 4th August i contacted Brian whom got straight back to me, i gave him my finding and he said right away.

Steve the ECM has been wet, it has destroyed the 95P08 eeprom and the main processor.

This is why you're unable to resynchronise the security seed between the DDE4 and the EWS 3 i can sort it out but i will need the EWS3 in addition to the DDE4 in order to do that.

Then went on to explain something else which does not need to be posted here, sending a couple of photo showing the culprits on the ECU board.

Relayed all this back to Ian whom then over the next few days had to purchase a security Torx 5 pin bit, to remove the EWS3 and send it along with the ECU to Brian.

This was done by Ian, and as Brian put it to me after he received it, did the work and with a quick tickle of the magic wand all was good he kept it on his car tested for a few days running on his car, sent it back to Ian.

Once Ian received it back and he replaced into the case and into the plenum where it lives, not a great place as all know but hey ho, he started the car right away and is now a very happy R40 owner again.

So all good in the Rover owners land

Hi Steve,thanks for the detailed, and in depth post,it is brilliantly set out, and I’m sure it will benefit anyone, with similar problems to mine, it must have taken you quite a while, to put it all together, with text and photos, you must have a lot of patience, and I thank you once again, for your help and knowledge, and getting me up and running again.regards Ian. PS hopefully see you at the next NANO meet in sept.

[Arctic]

Hi Russ.
Thank you for your kind words, appreciated, yes i said to Ian more or less after being there for about 10-15 minutes which shows in the 10.31am photo, it's not looking good for the ECU i don't like that Microprocessor error & EEprom error, but decided to still carry on with the other tests, as you just never know.

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by swifty62

Hi Steve, thanks for the detailed, and in depth post, it is brilliantly set out, and I’m sure it will benefit anyone, with similar problems to mine, it must have taken you quite a while, to put it all together, with text and photos, you must have a lot of patience, and I thank you once again, for your help and knowledge, and getting me up and running again. regards Ian. PS hopefully see you at the next NANO meet in sept.[/QUOTE

]

Ian no problem my pleasure and as you say it will help other in the future, they can reference back to it.

They can always remove the ECU and have a visual look at it for corroded pins if no T4 is available to them at the time.

When i have time i will post up how to remove the ECU and the plugs so it's in the same place

[Arctic]

As promised above if you ever have to remove the ECU you to send to BugRuss, Brian, Trikey, for replacement, repairing, or just to have a 160 upgrade the photos below should help you to remove the ECU.

first you would need to remove the top grid, and it's under tray to do this click the link below following photos up to 38.
https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/for...d.php?t=301164

Once you have the ECU on the top of the car you can now start to unplug the connectors.

1

Unclip the two rear and front clips which will allow you to take the top off the case.
2

Now you can start to unclip the connectors start from the right hand side.

The first plug just lifts upwards by pulling.
3

The next plug you need to depress the tang and pull the lever arm over, this will lift the plug up it's self.
4

5

With that plug out of the way move onto the next one.
6

7

8

Then onto the last but one plug.
9

10

The last plug is the same as the first it just pulls upwards.
11

You can now slide out the ECU.
12

13

You can check the pins for corrosion before you send it off for what ever reason you are doing it for.
14

In the post with it and wait for it's return and repair or upgrade by one of the Guru's above

[grivas]

Originally Posted by Arctic

As promised above if you ever have to remove the ECU you to send to BugRuss, Brian, Trikey, for replacement, repairing, or just to have a 160 upgrade the photos below should help you to remove the ECU.

first you would need to remove the top grid, and it's under tray to do this click the link below following photos up to 38.
https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/for...d.php?t=301164

Once you have the ECU on the top of the car you can now start to unplug the connectors.

1

Unclip the two rear and front clips which will allow you to take the top off the case.
2

Now you can start to unclip the connectors start from the right hand side.

The first plug just lifts upwards by pulling.
3

The next plug you need to depress the tang and pull the lever arm over, this will lift the plug up it's self.
4

5

With that plug out of the way move onto the next one.
6

7

8

Then onto the last but one plug.
9

10

The last plug is the same as the first it just pulls upwards.
11

You can now slide out the ECU.
12

13

You can check the pins for corrosion before you send it off for what ever reason you are doing it for.
14

In the post with it and wait for it's return and repair or upgrade by one of the Guru's above

This has been one of the most interesting posts to read and resolve, in a very long while. I salute everyone for their remarkable abilities and genuine willingness to help others, this is a very British thing and I send my good wishes to everyone who was involved, it is truly outstanding. Bravo.