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Old 21st May 2020, 21:34   #11
edwardmk
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Originally Posted by JOHNDQ View Post
Simple solution really, get British people to do the job then we might be able to understand them. I go to Bedford hospital to visit my aunt who's in the final stages of cancer and the wards are like yarl's wood immigration centre
That is my question too. Why are we not training our own people? Successive governments since the '80's chose to reduce training of doctors and nurses (and dentists) in the UK despite being advised by the professions that demand would dramatically increase as baby boomers retired. It's much cheaper to go to trade fairs in other countries where labour costs are significantly lower and recruit there for the NHS and not train our own young people. I feel that trend should to be reversed. Some diversity is a plus of course, especially in major cities, as the language skills are needed for the diverse population we now have, but enough is enough. The debate and disagreement is always about where the balance is.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 08:42   #12
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Originally Posted by Typhoon190 View Post
There should be a charge (at least cost) for all the retards that commit crime and injure themselves (and others) in the process!

I'm sure that would recover a much larger sum from the right place. Only my opinion.
The only problem with that being the criminal classes would not pay the charges and some very liberal judges would let them off as it’s against their human rights!
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Old 22nd May 2020, 16:48   #13
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The only problem with that being the criminal classes would not pay the charges and some very liberal judges would let them off as it’s against their human rights!
Fair point, but not a good enough reason why this should be worked out, certainly above the the original post. (IMO)
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Old 22nd May 2020, 17:59   #14
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Originally Posted by Typhoon190 View Post
There should be a charge (at least cost) for all the retards that commit crime and injure themselves (and others) in the process!

I'm sure that would recover a much larger sum from the right place. Only my opinion.
I'm sympathetic to that idea but it looks like a zero return with no redeeming features.

It starts with a reduction from nationwide free treatment for the sick and injured, all the way to imprisonment for non-payment of fines imposed for causing or sustaining personal injuries following arrest for a breach of the peace. Occasionally, against the police! Political suicide.

Then take into account the additional legal costs - paid by the rest of us. And I'm sure that a sizeable percentage of them are far from retarded, quite the reverse! Primitive cunning and the skill to use it will usually outpace justice.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 19:03   #15
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Originally Posted by Stevie25 View Post
This was still on the BBC website an hour ago.

The government has defended charging overseas health workers to use the NHS, despite criticism from its own party.
The health immigration surcharge on non-EU migrants is £400 per year and set to rise to £624 in October.


Delighted to see it Removed.
IMHO it's a number of related issues causing confusion by being illogically conflated.
Most of us would agree there is insufficient NHS funding - but there will never be 'enough money' to satisfy the demands of a growing population (arguably skewed by unmanaged/targetted immigration), wider range of treatments, medical technology and research 'fixing' more issues (whether or not justified on sound health reasons), lack of prevention culture/better lifestyle choices etc. so unless something changes demand will continue to outstrip capacity.... but:
1. Our system is based on the premis that everyone contributes and receives treatment, medication etc. according to their needs with latterly a hybrid private sector operating in parallel.
2. Citizen funding is 'assured/calculated' over approx. 5 decades, our forebears being responsible for funding our future needs et al.
3. It started off as a national 'brave new world' closed system with a load of start-up public (government) dosh + nationlisation of what was essentially a private sector service (today, classed as a business).
4. Transients (those not taking up long stay/resident status) should be covered by some form of third party insurance to fund their health requirements

OK, fag packet history lesson over. Recognising that anyone (anyone, even if they end up being employed by the NHS) outside the closed system/taking advantage of the NHS ipso facto has not contributed and it's entirely reasonable (indeed financially/morally logical) that a means is found whereby that shortfall can be rectified - regardless of whether they ever have a need of the sharp end of the NHS (ie according to their needs).
For those EU migrants using the closed system there is a financial contra system in place (criminally, something not particularly well managed by the NHS/the British Civil Service - that's not the fault of the EU who do a far better job of clawing back their due charges).
For non-EU migrants there is the Health Surcharge (so if you accept the above arguement), and why not! Setting the proper level of tariff might be a moot point but charged they should be.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 07:29   #16
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Originally Posted by JOHNDQ View Post
Can't see the problem another tick for Boris
can you explain your post as I'm wondering if you are agreeing with charging foreign NHS workers to use the NHS.

If my understanding is correct, on what grounds do you think it right to charge foreigners that are working and paying tax etc just like a British born person? If they were not working and paying tax I may see it differently.

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Old 23rd May 2020, 07:32   #17
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Originally Posted by rab60bit View Post
IMHO it's a number of related issues causing confusion by being illogically conflated.
Most of us would agree there is insufficient NHS funding - but there will never be 'enough money' to satisfy the demands of a growing population (arguably skewed by unmanaged/targetted immigration), wider range of treatments, medical technology and research 'fixing' more issues (whether or not justified on sound health reasons), lack of prevention culture/better lifestyle choices etc. so unless something changes demand will continue to outstrip capacity.... but:
1. Our system is based on the premis that everyone contributes and receives treatment, medication etc. according to their needs with latterly a hybrid private sector operating in parallel.
2. Citizen funding is 'assured/calculated' over approx. 5 decades, our forebears being responsible for funding our future needs et al.
3. It started off as a national 'brave new world' closed system with a load of start-up public (government) dosh + nationlisation of what was essentially a private sector service (today, classed as a business).
4. Transients (those not taking up long stay/resident status) should be covered by some form of third party insurance to fund their health requirements

OK, fag packet history lesson over. Recognising that anyone (anyone, even if they end up being employed by the NHS) outside the closed system/taking advantage of the NHS ipso facto has not contributed and it's entirely reasonable (indeed financially/morally logical) that a means is found whereby that shortfall can be rectified - regardless of whether they ever have a need of the sharp end of the NHS (ie according to their needs).
For those EU migrants using the closed system there is a financial contra system in place (criminally, something not particularly well managed by the NHS/the British Civil Service - that's not the fault of the EU who do a far better job of clawing back their due charges).
For non-EU migrants there is the Health Surcharge (so if you accept the above arguement), and why not! Setting the proper level of tariff might be a moot point but charged they should be.
When you mention immigration you also need to mention the figures for those that emigrate.

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Old 23rd May 2020, 18:29   #18
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if you use the NHS you should pay for it regardless - no free meals chris.s
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Old 23rd May 2020, 18:55   #19
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Originally Posted by mileshawk56 View Post
if you use the NHS you should pay for it regardless - no free meals chris.s
I have paid, and continue to pay tax since I was 16 - are you suggesting I pay a further ‘surcharge’ to use the NHS?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 19:32   #20
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Originally Posted by macafee2 View Post
can you explain your post as I'm wondering if you are agreeing with charging foreign NHS workers to use the NHS.

If my understanding is correct, on what grounds do you think it right to charge foreigners that are working and paying tax etc just like a British born person? If they were not working and paying tax I may see it differently.

macafee2
I refer you to how Christopher (Mileshawke56) succinctly puts it.
May I offer you an hypothetical scenario -
'Foreign' medical worker 'A' takes up a post in the UK after being recruited by an overseas agency (obo NHS) with the idea of spending 4-5 years in the system (or even contemplating becoming a UK citizen). By accepting the post we should assume 'A' has a contract with all the usual relevant details of employment etc. and also meets all the experience/qualification requirements. It is a given that 'A' is seeking employment in the UK and finds the offer/T&C's suitably attractive - there's no force or coercion involved.
'A' proves a very competent and diligent worker but after 9 months is involved in a serious rail accident together with 'B' a UK born colleague (of similar age/experience demographic - say has worked for 8 years after qualifiying) whilst in transit to work one day - they both suffer similar multiple injuries and are justifiably off work for 3 months (each spending 7 weeks in the various stages of hospitalisation); thankfully both fully recover and return to duties.
So far, 'B' has paid UK tax and NI for 8 of their qualified working years, 'A' has probably paid 8 months emergency tax and perhaps NI contributions. They both receive the same treatment and benefits whilst in hospital and throughout R&R at a conservative total cost to the system of £180K (£90K each) including all the special services whilst being recovered from the rail crash.
At the time of the accident clearly 'B' has paid more tax and NI into the system (for arguements sake let's say their contribution is £28K), 'A' meantime has paid £2K.
Neither of these figures comes anywhere close to the actual costs to the system but WE (you, me and millions of others and our forbears) meantime take care of the deficit.
Subsequently, after 4 years happily working in the UK 'A' takes up a post in the USA whilst 'B' works a further 20 years in the system (that = a 28 year NHS shift including that damned Covid-19 pandemic back in 2020/21...) and takes a slightly early retirement due to their back never fully recovering from the rail accident.
Over their working life, 'B' was promoted 5 grades, later had a child and had their appendix removed (NHS) and overall pays £120K into the system before retirement. 'A' didn't have further need of the NHS and over 4 years paid £9K into the system and received a tax refund of £1.3K on departing for the USA; the Health Charge in this scenario was applied and secured a further (massive...) £2K NHS contribution during the period of their time in the UK.
You can pick holes in it but I rest my case and just boggle at the thought of what many percieve as a massive magic money pit, FOC NHS for all - wake up and smell the coffee! The fact that an NHS worker also may have to use the system is a fact but not an excuse.
Not the original question but by all means let's value/pay NHS workers more (specifically those on the front line) but get real in the process.

Last edited by rab60bit; 23rd May 2020 at 19:56..
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