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Old 29th May 2016, 21:15   #111
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Originally Posted by bobthebuilder View Post
With respect, you are rather missing the point. Because the government did not (and I think I'm correct on this) include 'staying in' as a manifesto pledge, people can complain that they have no mandate to state their 'in' position as they are doing now (at tax payers expense). They obviously did this as the party is totally divided over the issue.



By and large, I'm sure the politicians - and public - take the side they do out of conviction. Not Boris however..... otherwise he wouldn't have been saying in February how good the EU is or taken so long to decide which side he's actually on!!



He's taken a punt on 'Out' winning, Cameron's position being untenable and guess who then becomes PM. Not somebody anyone voted for, that's for sure.



And talking of anti-democratic, when are those accusing the EU of being as much going to object to the House of Lords?


But there is a huge difference between the House of Lords and the EU commissioners.
I don't actually understand how the EU actually works, I don't think anybody does, and that's the first difference, but the second and more worrying difference is that it's the unelected EU commissioners who actually produce the laws, and even though we can sometimes veto the ones we don't like, it is by no means always the case. I believe for example, they recently created a new directive withdrawing the veto in certain circumstances, so in actual fact, they might even withdraw it entirely if they so wished, and there is nothing we can do about it.
The House of Lords on the other hand, can't make or amend any laws. They can however block new laws which they consider to be bad laws, and in my view that's a good thing. Without that protection, the present government could steam roller through any law they wanted, perhaps that the tax rate should be increased to 110%


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Old 29th May 2016, 21:39   #112
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I don't actually understand how the EU actually works, I don't think anybody does, and that's the first difference, but the second and more worrying difference is that it's the unelected EU commissioners who actually produce the laws, and even though we can sometimes veto the ones we don't like, it is by no means always the case. I believe for example, they recently created a new directive withdrawing the veto in certain circumstances, so in actual fact, they might even withdraw it entirely if they so wished, and there is nothing we can do about it.
The House of Lords on the other hand, can't make or amend any laws. They can however block new laws which they consider to be bad laws, and in my view that's a good thing. Without that protection, the present government could steam roller through any law they wanted, perhaps that the tax rate should be increased to 110%
The eu comissioners don't produce the laws, they can propose them. But the actual creation iirc is up to European parliament.

A veto is just that, it is given up not taken away.

The HoL can block the laws but only for so long, after so long (3 vote? ) it then goes through.

You say you don't know how it works, plenty of information online.

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Old 29th May 2016, 21:49   #113
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There's questions over say the right to live and work, either uk citizens to live in the eu or eu citizens to live here. When coming to that sort of thing it's always a bit tricky
Jimbo, see post 79 (mine).

I'm assuming most of us might not want to emigrate to EU once UK starts going it's own way. After all £18 billion a year extra will help a lot with NHS, Housing etc. That's not a guess, that's the figures now, without any guesstimate fairyland increase for inflation. That's only Boris's 350 million a week, including the rebates and discount, that we can add together to make it worthwhile!

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The eu comissioners don't produce the laws, they can propose them. But the actual creation iirc is up to European parliament.



HTH
The commissioners make up the law, they decide what is wanted or desired from the point of view of the guiding principles of the union. They pass the draughts to the assembly for voting on by the MEP's. The council then approve the law they have deigned to offer. The commissioners are not elected, they are appointed by the assembly. The MEP's are not voting for the Council. they are approving what the council do. Dissent is very rare diminishing to never.
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Old 29th May 2016, 21:59   #114
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I'm assuming most of us might not want to emigrate to EU once UK starts going it's own way.
I wouldn't think so, I was more thinking about what rules are we going to set up. What about expats living in the eu, who will have a right to work here or learn here? What about eu people that are here now, will they have to leave.

Many questions for those parties so chosen in this referdum to answer, i wonder if any one has thought of that sort of thing?

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The commissioners make up the law, they decide what is wanted or desired from the point of view of the guiding principles of the union. They pass the draughts to the assembly for voting on by the MEP's. The council then approve the law they have deigned to offer. The commissioners are not elected, they are appointed by the assembly. The MEP's are not voting for the Council. they are approving what the council do. Dissent is very rare diminishing to never.
I'm pretty sure they are voted in, not by general voting but by voting within the parliament itself. The council is a seperate function from the commision.
The laws propsed are often modified and compromised long before they arrive for open voting by the parliament. Much like many other governments, no one would propose a law they knew would be voted down. Comprises are sought gained and traded off, such is politics. Isn't politics the art of compromise.
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Old 29th May 2016, 22:20   #115
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....so where's the economic plan post BREXIT then


Good question, but equally, where's the economic plan post remain? There isn't one is there, because in reality we don't know what's going to happen in the future.
Of course the economy will probably suffer for a short time. Maybe up to two years did someone say? Well l would be inclined to agree with that, because it will take two years to negotiate our way out.
The Remain campaign likes to rubbish the 350bn figure quoted by Brexit, but I have yet to find an alternative one that is backed up by some facts, and even though we have never actually handed over that amount, I understand it is near enough the actual top line figure. The initial rebate is voluntary, so no reason to believe it will continue in the future. Approximately half is paid back in grants, mostly to farmers, but we have no say in the allocation. It's a bit like you giving me you pay cheque, and leaving me to pay your bills and do your shopping. I might decide you should have a new BMW, whilst the bank were busy placing an eviction notice on your house.
If the government are so certain we will face economic disaster should we leave, why are having a referendum in the first place? Are we to believe that Dave deliberately placed this countries economy at risk? Isn't it because the Tories have a split in their party, and at the same time they are loosing votes to UKIP? So in other words, public money is being used to shore up a rift in the Tory party.
If the government have a right to campaign, why is it wrong for the BBC to have a political bias? Why is it considered necessary to have a electoral commission? What is the point of said commission setting and authorising who can campaign, and what they can spend?
There's not much point in any of that, if the government are going to run there own campaign alongside the official campaign teams, and especially if they are using the public purse to do so and thereby ignoring the electoral commission rules.
By acting in this way, it will make little difference what the outcome of the poll is. The loosing side will always believe they have been cheated, which is exactly why the Scottish people are still shouting for another poll, and why those that backed the union before are so terrified that there might be another, because there is no guarantee who might win.


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Old 29th May 2016, 22:20   #116
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Jimbo, see post 79 (mine).

I'm assuming most of us might not want to emigrate to EU once UK starts going it's own way. After all £18 billion a year extra will help a lot with NHS, Housing etc. That's not a guess, that's the figures now, without any guesstimate fairyland increase for inflation. That's only Boris's 350 million a week, including the rebates and discount, that we can add together to make it worthwhile!
Why do you keep wrongly stating we send £350 million a week to the EU. We don't!

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-m...ee-55-million/

And with the big hit we will take on GDP on leaving, the economy will contract so who knows what the final position could be. We won't suddenly be £18 billion better off. Especially if we have to cough up for EU trading rights as other 'non EU' nations do. But without any influence of course.
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Old 29th May 2016, 22:37   #117
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All the scare story's you read about how our economy will go into a huge decline makes me laugh. Unemployment will go through the roof. Food and energy prices will rise as well as inflation. If we were to vote out of the EU tonight for argument's sake ,the scare mongers are making these dire predictions based on that we will have all ties severed with the EU by the next morning. It will take years for us, after an out vote for us to be completely free from the EU. Business will have plenty of time to adapt to the changing market. The scare mongers make out, it will be like a light switch being turned off and the shock of instant change will send shock waves throughout our industry. In reality it will be a slow progressive change. I really am undecided which way to vote. There are so many different angles on this to take into consideration. I do think though if the country does decide to stay in we will never get the opportunity again to get out in the future. If another referendum where to come around in 20 years time our country would have so many EU citizens registered as British subjects the vote for out would be in a huge minority because it's obvious they would vote to stay in. 80% of the staff where I work are from Europe. There's got to around 250 polish / Bulgarians there. On a personal basis there all good decent hard working individuals who just want to earn a decent living and provide for there family's. I get invited around to BBQs and enjoy a good social life with a lot of them but it does beg the question on how much of a strain it all puts on our health service and housing. Rental prices have gone through the roof because it's in such high demand. It's also ironic to see that a lot of the Polish workers do not like the Bulgarians workers where I work because they feel they are taking there jobs. One other thing that makes me feel I would vote for out. I have seen it happen so many times at work over the years You will have a European guy working over here who will go back home to visit his wife. 8 months later she decides to come and stay in the UK with her fella and is heavily pregnant from when he last visited her. She has the baby here then goes back home. Because the baby is a UK citizen she's now entitled to claim for UK child benefit back in her home country. This happens all the while and the amount of money going out of our country each week in benefits must be mind boggling.
The world's gone mad. :-))
I'm think I'd better hide behind the sofa now with my tin hat on :-)
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Old 29th May 2016, 22:47   #118
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Originally Posted by topman View Post
The eu comissioners don't produce the laws, they can propose them. But the actual creation iirc is up to European parliament.



A veto is just that, it is given up not taken away.



The HoL can block the laws but only for so long, after so long (3 vote? ) it then goes through.



You say you don't know how it works, plenty of information online.



HTH


If you understand how the EU works, you must be the only one who does, maybe you can explain to me what our MEP actually do, (apart from apparently loose 80% of their votes) but what do the actually vote on? I do know that it has taken them 9 years to agree with our government that vehicle emission tests did not reflect real world conditions, and I believe similar time to agree trade deal with USA, neither of which have reached a conclusion yet.
What I do know, is that the elected members have no powers to make directives, which are the rules that must be obeyed, these come from the unelected commissioners, a bit like an upside down version of our system.
Early on in this debate, I was lead to believe that there was nothing to fear from the EU making decisions that might be detrimental to UK, because we could always use our veto, however I later discover, that if (I think nine) countries agree, our veto can be overruled.


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Old 29th May 2016, 22:57   #119
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Why do you keep wrongly stating we send £350 million a week to the EU. We don't!



https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-m...ee-55-million/



And with the big hit we will take on GDP on leaving, the economy will contract so who knows what the final position could be. We won't suddenly be £18 billion better off. Especially if we have to cough up for EU trading rights as other 'non EU' nations do. But without any influence of course.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 18bn/year work out at something like 346m a week?
Now I know we don't actually send that amount, but that is the top line figure, and any deductions or returns is entirely out with our control


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Old 29th May 2016, 23:07   #120
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 18bn/year work out at something like 346m a week?
Now I know we don't actually send that amount, but that is the top line figure, and any deductions or returns is entirely out with our control


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Yes your sums are right. But we don't send £350million a week, the rebate is applied first. Then the amount that comes back must also be included to calculate the net contribution.

As the link shows, the total contribution generally changes in proportion to the headline contribution, so although people might like to claim it's not guaranteed or deterministic etc, it pretty much is.
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