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Old 2nd January 2016, 19:13   #21
prebenny
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Originally Posted by coolcat View Post
Or alternatively use your 'friends' product from a relatively unknown person on here and trust that nothing goes wrong
That's why it's not released yet.It's basically finished but we are still testing it to find all the bugs (nothing that could kill Your car though). Just don't want to give any arguments against TOAF to mutual T4 admiration circle (people who obviously get alot of money for using T4 and selling it).
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Old 2nd January 2016, 19:16   #22
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Originally Posted by prebenny View Post
That's why it's not released yet.It's basically finished but we are still testing it to find all the bugs (nothing that could kill Your car though). Just don't want to give any arguments against TOAF to mutual T4 admiration circle (people who obviously get alot of money for using T4 and selling it).
You seem to be doing a lot of promoting of TOAF without being a trader

Just thought I'd mention it.......in the interests of fairness
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Old 2nd January 2016, 19:16   #23
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The original discs say "© MG Rover" on them, so as far as I am concerned you can only legally use a VT4 if you have original discs. Using copies (which ones from ebay most likely are) is illegal in my opinion.

I have not fully understood Toaf yet, and so I won't comment.

Concerning VT4 vs pscan.eu here is how I see it:-

VT4 + legal discs is the full fat factory tool. It would appear that it will do anything that a dealer can do, on a 75/ZT only. I would assume that this makes it both as useful and as dangerous as the dealer T4 tool.

Phil-T4 has not as far as I know stated this, but it looks like it will talk to every ECU on a 75/ZT the same as a real one.

VT4 is VIN locked so you can only connect it to the cars that you have agreed with Phil-T4.

You will need I think a suitable XP laptop or a way of virtualising it.

on the other hand...

pscan.eu has been written from nothing by my company and has been legally developed using reverse engineering techniques which are protected in EU law. It contains no code what so ever from MG Rover, Landrover or anyone else, the compiler which we use open source and licensed to use in the way that we use it. The thing is totally legal to own/use whatever, no ifs or buts.

Because we wrote the code ourselves it means that it can be pretty much whatever we or our customers want it to be. Lots of customers want to log live data to a file whilst they drive around and we will do that eventually. If someone suggests a look of the gui which we agree is better then we can change it.

pscan.eu will not yet speak to every ECU on a 75/ZT. We have developed something like 17 ECUs in just over a year which I think is pretty good going. Some of them pretty difficult. I am pretty sure that we will get most of them done, especially as we finally (recently) have our own T4 to work with. That said I would imagine that things like key coding on a 75 might be extremely hard. If MG Rover's crypto was good enough there is a risk that we might not crack it.

You can use pscan.eu on as many cars as you like. You can use it as a garage tool if you are in the trade. pscan.eu LTD have/will attempted to prevent you from sharing the tool with other people though, but you are allowed to sell it on. We are also compliant with distance selling laws, so if you buy one and don't like it within a week or two you get a full refund on return to us.

pscan.eu works on lots of other Rovers and MGs. It can code in fobs on things as ancient as 90s Minis and works really well on cars such as MGF. We can also promise you that it will with time be a great Freelander 1 tool, and it is I think that it is the cheapest tool that actually works on the Defender / Disco 2 TD5 engines.

pscan.eu will work on Windows 2000 right through to 10, Linux and Mac OSX. I have started working on Android and I would say it looks possible but a lot of work. It will probably happen. Iphone and Ipad look unlikely.

Conclusion

I hope that this is fair, I think it is.

If you only own a 75/ZT and want to go deeply technical, and, if you can legally get the discs or already own a T4 (even a broken one) then VT4 probably looks the best option.

If you have a mix of Rovers / MGs and certain Landrovers, or, if you want a something easy to install and guaranteed not to damage your car, then pscan.eu might be a better bet. If you can't get legally get the T4 discs then it is the only legal option.

If you are patient you will probably eventually get 95% of the T4 functionality anyway because we are still developing the tool and that is our aim. There is always likely to be some niche or dangerous thing that we might never get to though. If you think that such a promise is a bit woolly or easily broken then please look at where we were a year a go and ask our customers if we gave them everything that we promised, or not.

There will always be that last few % of features though. If you want those, then you will need access to a T4.
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Old 2nd January 2016, 19:33   #24
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Coolcat it has been said before - TOAF will be free (without chiptuning and key management) so neither I or Longer have no profit of doing that. Both of us are just one of people testing it. Man who done all the job is Marcin Misek and he is the man who we should thank for his time and work.

In fact we are talking alot lately but notice one thing. How old are our cars? Oldest 16 and youngest 10 years old. Sorry but I wont believe that there was no possibility of doing thing like virtual t4 earlier. I don't believe in the coincidence it is available now when TOAF project is on finish. I just see it this way people who own T4's get lots of money using it are trying to get as much money as they can before TOAF is available. I consider it really unfair not only for me or Longer86 or Marcin Misek but to every single MG ZT/Rover 75 owner (not sure but with Land Rover Freelander I it should work as well - will ask people who will know and edit this or post answer later) who has to pay every time to plug T4 to their cars or buy VT4.

If I understood well when PSCAN (correct me if I'm wrong) was released there also were problems with T4 lobby trying to discredit people who made it.
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Old 2nd January 2016, 19:36   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pscan.eu View Post
The original discs say "© MG Rover" on them, so as far as I am concerned you can only legally use a VT4 if you have original discs. Using copies (which ones from ebay most likely are) is illegal in my opinion.

I have not fully understood Toaf yet, and so I won't comment.

Concerning VT4 vs pscan.eu here is how I see it:-

VT4 + legal discs is the full fat factory tool. It would appear that it will do anything that a dealer can do, on a 75/ZT only. I would assume that this makes it both as useful and as dangerous as the dealer T4 tool.

Phil-T4 has not as far as I know stated this, but it looks like it will talk to every ECU on a 75/ZT the same as a real one.

VT4 is VIN locked so you can only connect it to the cars that you have agreed with Phil-T4.

You will need I think a suitable XP laptop or a way of virtualising it.

on the other hand...

pscan.eu has been written from nothing by my company and has been legally developed using reverse engineering techniques which are protected in EU law. It contains no code what so ever from MG Rover, Landrover or anyone else, the compiler which we use open source and licensed to use in the way that we use it. The thing is totally legal to own/use whatever, no ifs or buts.

Because we wrote the code ourselves it means that it can be pretty much whatever we or our customers want it to be. Lots of customers want to log live data to a file whilst they drive around and we will do that eventually. If someone suggests a look of the gui which we agree is better then we can change it.

pscan.eu will not yet speak to every ECU on a 75/ZT. We have developed something like 17 ECUs in just over a year which I think is pretty good going. Some of them pretty difficult. I am pretty sure that we will get most of them done, especially as we finally (recently) have our own T4 to work with. That said I would imagine that things like key coding on a 75 might be extremely hard. If MG Rover's crypto was good enough there is a risk that we might not crack it.

You can use pscan.eu on as many cars as you like. You can use it as a garage tool if you are in the trade. pscan.eu LTD have/will attempted to prevent you from sharing the tool with other people though, but you are allowed to sell it on. We are also compliant with distance selling laws, so if you buy one and don't like it within a week or two you get a full refund on return to us.

pscan.eu works on lots of other Rovers and MGs. It can code in fobs on things as ancient as 90s Minis and works really well on cars such as MGF. We can also promise you that it will with time be a great Freelander 1 tool, and it is I think that it is the cheapest tool that actually works on the Defender / Disco 2 TD5 engines.

pscan.eu will work on Windows 2000 right through to 10, Linux and Mac OSX. I have started working on Android and I would say it looks possible but a lot of work. It will probably happen. Iphone and Ipad look unlikely.

Conclusion

I hope that this is fair, I think it is.

If you only own a 75/ZT and want to go deeply technical, and, if you can legally get the discs or already own a T4 (even a broken one) then VT4 probably looks the best option.

If you have a mix of Rovers / MGs and certain Landrovers, or, if you want a something easy to install and guaranteed not to damage your car, then pscan.eu might be a better bet. If you can't get legally get the T4 discs then it is the only legal option.

If you are patient you will probably eventually get 95% of the T4 functionality anyway because we are still developing the tool and that is our aim. There is always likely to be some niche or dangerous thing that we might never get to though. If you think that such a promise is a bit woolly or easily broken then please look at where we were a year a go and ask our customers if we gave them everything that we promised, or not.

There will always be that last few % of features though. If you want those, then you will need access to a T4.
Thanks for that. It's a very informative post

Are you planning to change your software so instead of just being able to read data, changing will also be possible (as in dealer options)??
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Old 2nd January 2016, 19:47   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolcat View Post
You seem to be doing a lot of promoting of TOAF without being a trader

Just thought I'd mention it.......in the interests of fairness
As TOAF should be a free product I can't see why this would be an issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pscan.eu View Post
The original discs say "© MG Rover" on them, so as far as I am concerned you can only legally use a VT4 if you have original discs. Using copies (which ones from ebay most likely are) is illegal in my opinion.
I think most people will get a dodgy disk off eBay, much the same as RAVE.

I would imagine that the EULA probably prohibits even a genuine disk being used in this way although I could be wrong.
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Old 2nd January 2016, 19:50   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by humphshumphs View Post
Thanks for that. It's a very informative post

Are you planning to change your software so instead of just being able to read data, changing will also be possible (as in dealer options)??
1. If customers want it (it might take a while though, I have other commitments and I always deliver my commitments)
2. If I can figure out how to do it
3. If it can be made reasonably idiot proof.

I'm not against the idea, put it that way. I think I can probably give you a better answer in a few months.
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Old 2nd January 2016, 19:52   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakg View Post
I think most people will get a dodgy disk off eBay, much the same as RAVE.
This will not be a victimless crime. The victim will be my family basically. Just buy a legal solution. Please.
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Old 2nd January 2016, 19:54   #29
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pscan.eu TOAF is made in basically the same way - written from nothing, with reverse engineering help (but not containing a single line from T4 code).
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Old 2nd January 2016, 19:56   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prebenny View Post
Coolcat it has been said before - TOAF will be free (without chiptuning and key management) so neither I or Longer have no profit of doing that. Both of us are just one of people testing it. Man who done all the job is Marcin Misek and he is the man who we should thank for his time and work.

In fact we are talking alot lately but notice one thing. How old are our cars? Oldest 16 and youngest 10 years old. Sorry but I wont believe that there was no possibility of doing thing like virtual t4 earlier. I don't believe in the coincidence it is available now when TOAF project is on finish. I just see it this way people who own T4's get lots of money using it are trying to get as much money as they can before TOAF is available. I consider it really unfair not only for me or Longer86 or Marcin Misek but to every single MG ZT/Rover 75 owner (not sure but with Land Rover Freelander I it should work as well - will ask people who will know and edit this or post answer later) who has to pay every time to plug T4 to their cars or buy VT4.

If I understood well when PSCAN (correct me if I'm wrong) was released there also were problems with T4 lobby trying to discredit people who made it.
I consider it unfair that Phil and others have invested much time and their own money to service our community here and then it to be undermined by others offering to do everything for nothing!

Remember these people pay to be on here and advertise their services/products and then someone comes on and says......."Don't buy that, I'll do it for free" I don't see that as entirely fair either

Ps, Pscan is selling a product and is a trader so no problems there
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