R 75 KV6 2.5 AT: no locking pin hole found

[Tonimacaroni]

Dear Rover specialists,


While working in a Rover 75 KV6, 2.5 with auto transmission, I came up with some 'timing belt' related questions; I hope somebody can help me.


Both heads were off (HGF) and fully disassembled, for machining the (warped) head surface and to re-profile the valves and valve seats. So the floating cam gears were off.

My question is related to the correct timing belt fitment. FYI: I do have the required timing tools (including a crank pulley locking tool) and I'm very familiar with the procedure I found in old Rover 75 forum threads plus OEM instructions. (I really did study a lot..)
Unfortunately the primary crank timing gear came of together with the pulley, without the crank being locked in 'SAFE position'. So I missed the change to make my own markings. I did not know that this would be required...



1)

I did not found any 'locking pin' hole in the AT 'flywheel', so I'm not able to lock the crankshaft in the so called 'SAFE position'.
(FYI: I did found the correct? holes in the engine 'clutch' housing)
- does anybody experienced the same?
- is this an AT issue?
- is there an alternative option for locking the crank (in the 'SAFE' position)



2)
The 'oil pump housing/primary gear' timing marks do not correspond at all with the 'SAFE' timing marks (arrows) on the secondary belt pulley and plastic cover combination.
Is it true that the marks on the oil pump and primary gear are 'left overs' from the old KV6 engine? (and should not be used!!). And what crank position do these (old) timing marks refer to?



3)
What does the 'SAFE position' mean in real crankshaft position units. Is the 'SAFE' position the TDC position of cylinder 1?
Does anybody has a 'piston position picture' for the 'SAFE crank position?


4)
How to lock the crank in the 'SAFE' position?
Wat I mean is that I can put the crank in the 'SAFE' position by using the 'SAFE' marks on the pulley and plastic cover, but then I have to take of this pulley and the 'accessories plate' in order to install the timing belt. Without crank locking pin, the cranks moves easily while installing the new belt...



5)
Just to be sure: the correct timing is achieved when the 'SAFE' crank timing mark corresponds with the 'SAFE' timing mark on the plastic cover, AND both cam gear sets at the back of the head are 'aligned' at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock position, using the marks on the gears (and/or using the tool)


Thanks in advance for (accurately) answering my questions.


Cheers Ton

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Tonimacaroni

1)
I did not find any 'locking pin' hole in the AT 'flywheel', so I'm not able to lock the crankshaft in the so called 'SAFE position'.

Make sure that you are using the inner hole of the two; that is the hole nearest the crankcase cast webbing. Please also read on regarding your crankshaft pulley alignment.

- is this an AT issue?

No.

- is there an alternative option for locking the crank (in the 'SAFE' position)

Not to my knowledge.

2)
The 'oil pump housing/primary gear' timing marks do not correspond at all with the 'SAFE' timing marks (arrows) on the secondary belt pulley ...

They're close, but not exact as you would expect. When the locking pin is inserted the notches on the rear sprockets (secondary belts) don't quite line up. To work on the rear belts (with the front belt tensioned) the locking pin has to be removed and the engine turned very slightly so that the notches on the rear sprockets do line up!

Is it true that the marks on the oil pump and primary gear are 'left overs' from the old KV6 engine? (and should not be used!!).

I don't know. Note that the MG Rover manual (RAVE) refers to the word "SAFE" and an arrow not the "speech bubble".

And what crank position do these (old) timing marks refer to?

I don't think anybody has established that.

3)
What does the 'SAFE position' mean in real crankshaft position units. Is the 'SAFE' position the TDC position of cylinder 1? Does anybody has a 'piston position picture' for the 'SAFE crank position?

I don't think any of this is known.

4)
How to lock the crank in the 'SAFE' position?
What I mean is that I can put the crank in the 'SAFE' position by using the 'SAFE' marks on the pulley and plastic cover, but then I have to take off this pulley and the 'accessories plate' in order to install the timing belt. Without crank locking pin, the cranks moves easily while installing the new belt...

You should align the notch on the crankshaft pulley with the word "SAFE" and the arrow which, as I remember it, is stamped in to the engine casting, not on a plastic cover.
Having said that, I found that I could only fit the locking pin when the crankshaft pulley notch and "SAFE" arrow were slightly out of alignment. I used the locking pin as my standard and it worked. With this pin fitted, the crankshaft obviously won't move when you're fitting the new belt.

5)
Just to be sure: the correct timing is achieved when the 'SAFE' crank timing mark corresponds with the 'SAFE' timing mark on the plastic cover, AND both cam gear sets at the back of the head are 'aligned' at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock position, using the marks on the gears (and/or using the tool)

No.

1. The "SAFE" mark is not on a plastic cover so I suspect that is the reason why you can't find the locking pin hole in the drive plate (equivalent of the flywheel on automatic transmission engines).
2. With the locking pin engaged, the rear sprocket notches won't quite align. Everybody discovers this. Fit the new front belt with the locking pin in place but remove it to align the rear sprocket notches in order to work on the rear belts.

Thanks in advance for (accurately) answering my questions.

I expect you'll have some questions Ton. It's a difficult subject to describe clearly in a few words.

Simon

[Tonimacaroni]

Dear Simon,


Thanks for you very fast reply!! (and apologies for my late reaction)



Also my apologies for an error in my text: where I wrote 'SAFE mark on plastic cover' I should have written 'SAFE mark on accessories plate'. My memory let me down while typing yesterday. I tried to correct this morning, but you already replied.

After a good night sleep I re-checked the flywheel for any holes that would fit the crank locking pin and I finally did found one (although the pin fits quite 'sloppy').


But the main issue is that the timing mark on my pulley now is approx at 105°CA from the vertical and not at the SAFE arrow on the accessories plate (which is at approx. 25°CA? from the vertical)
Coincidentally the timing mark on the primary timing belt gear is vertical, probably close to the (vertical) timing mark on the oil pump (not fitted at the moment).

Now I'm puzzled completely.... since this is not what's in the Haynes manual, AutoData and all stories on various fora...


I now remember as well that I was puzzled while disassembling the whole; with the secondary cam belts lined-up (3 o'clock and 9 o'clock position) the front pulley mark was way of the SAFE mark; probably at the 105°CA position, where it is now (using the locking pin) which I did not have while disassembling...



FYI: it looks that when my pulley is at the 'SAFE' markers, the engine is in TDC (piston 1 and 4 are in TDC, depending ho you define the cylinder#)


I do have pictures showing my situation, but I can't paste them in this text..


My summary:


With the locking pin inserted, the crank is at the safe position (none of the pistons in TDC). At the same time the mark on the pulley is on approx. 105°CA (not at the SAFE arrow at approx. 25°CA) but I should (can) neglect this.


The rest of the 'story' is clear to me, including the floating gears etc.





A pity that I can't post the pictures to 'prove' my case ;-)


Thanks for your help, and if you could and some info that would make me less insecure, please do so!

Cheers, Ton

[SD1too]

Hi Ton,

Your crankshaft locking pin shouldn't be sloppy. Here's what mine looked like when it was in place:

Originally Posted by Tonimacaroni

.... the timing mark on the primary timing belt gear is vertical, probably close to the (vertical) timing mark on the oil pump (not fitted at the moment).

Do you mean this?



If so, then that indicates the correct crankshaft position.

Regarding your crankshaft pulley groove, mine didn't align with the "SAFE" arrow. The notch at about 270 degrees is original. The surface slot at about 20 degrees was made by me with a hacksaw.

... depending ho you define the cylinder#

The left hand bank has odd numbered cylinders (1, 3, 5) and the right hand bank has even (2, 4, 6) numbered from the front of the engine. The front of the engine is where the crankshaft pulley is.

I do have pictures showing my situation, but I can't paste them in this text.

I think as a non-subscribing member you do have a small image allowance. When you select "Image Gallery" at the top of this page, do you see an option to upload images from the drop-down menu?

My summary:
With the locking pin inserted, the crank is at the safe position (none of the pistons in TDC). At the same time the mark on the pulley is on approx. 105°CA (not at the SAFE arrow at approx. 25°CA) but I should (can) neglect this.

It looks as if you're in the same position as I was. We both have early cars and it appears that the crankshaft pulley groove is in the wrong place! One other member reported the same thing.

Is any of that reassuring?

Simon

[Tonimacaroni]

Hi Simon,


Thanks for the very reassuring (and fast ;-) reply!


I did upload 3 pictures in the image gallery, but I don't know if you can see them.


I also tried to insert them here by copying the URL



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Thanks again!


Ton

[SD1too]

I can't see the pictures in your post but I've found them in the image gallery.
They seem to match mine. What do you think Ton?

Simon

[Tonimacaroni]

Originally Posted by SD1too

I can't see the pictures in your post but I've found them in the image gallery.
They seem to match mine. What do you think Ton?

Simon

Hi Simon,


Everything is clear to me (thanks to you;-)


Maybe I'll make a correct mark on the pulley like you did.


Now I have to wait on my (Ebay) camshaft, replacing the one with the broken notch. It broke during loosening the camshaft bolt. The other bolts I used the impact wrench, better use it always!

Thanks again for your help; nice to get support from 'friends' you don't know!

Cheers Ton (Schiedam, The Netherlands)

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Tonimacaroni

Everything is clear to me (thanks to you;-)

That's kind of you Ton. I'm glad to be of some help.

Originally Posted by Tonimacaroni

It broke during loosening the camshaft bolt.

That shouldn't have happened if you had the locking tools fitted.

Simon

[Rich in Vancouver]

The cams can be broken using the cheap Chinese tools to turn the cam.
You have to be very careful that the tool enters the cam squarely as if it is cocked a bit the brittle metal of the cam will fracture under pressure. The factory type cam turning tool is a good add on to the cheap kits.
When I got my KV6 Freelander two cams were broken. Luckily I was replacing the head with a new one which came with cams. Damage to the exhaust cams really doesn't matter as long as you can still use the notch to locate the tools. The intake cams are another matter as the pulley is located by the notch, and of course it is important that the pulley is fitted square to the cam and at the proper torque.

[Tonimacaroni]

Originally Posted by Rich in Vancouver

The cams can be broken using the cheap Chinese tools to turn the cam.
You have to be very careful that the tool enters the cam squarely as if it is cocked a bit the brittle metal of the cam will fracture under pressure. The factory type cam turning tool is a good add on to the cheap kits.
When I got my KV6 Freelander two cams were broken. Luckily I was replacing the head with a new one which came with cams. Damage to the exhaust cams really doesn't matter as long as you can still use the notch to locate the tools. The intake cams are another matter as the pulley is located by the notch, and of course it is important that the pulley is fitted square to the cam and at the proper torque.

FYI:
One cam notch broke during loosening of the secondary gear wheel bolt, retaining the camshaft by locking the the primary gear wheel. (without being properly torqued, probably only hand-tight).
This means that cam notches can also break using the square key on the primary gear wheel...
The other bolts were loosened using an air impact tool.

During installation of the cam belts, everything was torqued using (cheap) timing tools, without breaking problems.
Broken cam notches sems to be a frequent issue with the K6 engines?

Totally different question:
Do you know if the (M10 fine?) studs (nut: 15 mm hex head) of the downpipe to exhaust pipe flange, can be (easily) replaced?? One is ruined...

Cheers, Ton