Another CDTi starting problem..

CDTi Auto · 11th September 2007, 19:24

I have an 03 plate CDTi auto (87k miles) which has decided it doesn't want to start all of a sudden, but will EVENTUALLY start after about 20 secs of cranking...

I have checked the following :

Fuel : has about 1/3 tank full.
Front fuel pump (near battery/bulkhead) : buzzing away and working fine
Rear tank pump under seat : Had seat out and i can feel a buzz and hear a faint whirring, so assume all is well there
Fuel filter : changed last service about 5000 miles ago.

I've tried letting them both get to pressure (so they both stop pumping) then try to start, but still no joy. It's always taken 2-3 seconds to fire ever since I've had it but now it almost flattens the battery, even with a bit of help from the throttle!

Once it's going, it drives fine, however, every now and again when I floor it, it does seem to hesitate a little, then gets going, as if it's not getting enough fuel in time but thats not very often...

Only ever tried it hot/warm, not stone cold as its only been playing up today, but will let it go cold tonight and see whats what, so then I might identify the cam sensor...but it is showing revs whilst cranking which is making think that this might not be the culprit... will see what happens in the morning when its had all night to go cold.

Any other thoughts/suggestions anyone?

Simon · 11th September 2007, 20:05

Duff starter motor? Does the motor sound like it's cranking okay? (Bit of an open-ended question I know but it's a start).

Other things are air filter/intake (is it blocked?) and the actual Voltage on the battery. It should read 12V. Any less and usually you start experiencing other electrical anomalies (such as flickering lights and weird dash displays).

Could also be over-fueling....?

Someone with a little more experience on diesel engines will no doubt be along shortly but these are my ideas for starters (no pun intended....)

CDTi Auto · 11th September 2007, 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon D

Duff starter motor? Does the motor sound like it's cranking okay? (Bit of an open-ended question I know but it's a start).

Other things are air filter/intake (is it blocked?) and the actual Voltage on the battery. It should read 12V. Any less and usually you start experiencing other electrical anomalies (such as flickering lights and weird dash displays).

Could also be over-fueling....?

Someone with a little more experience on diesel engines will no doubt be along shortly but these are my ideas for starters (no pun intended....)

Hi Simon,
Thanks for your reply..

Starter is fine.. cranking at normal speed with no odd noises or anything...

Battery fine. No odd electrical gremlins or anything to point to anything of that nature.

Air intake ok - filter changed at last service, along with fuel filter (5000 miles ago)

Possible over fuelling, causing a "flooding" syndrome but not happened before. It's been on the motorway for a while today, which it doesn't all that much usually, so wondering if this has caused something. Will get it go cold tonight and review tomorrow morning on the way to work... provided it starts!!

Cheers

Matt

Simon · 11th September 2007, 20:41

Having a read-around on these forums it would seem a few suspect CDT engine start failures seem to lead to cam sensor problems being the cause. Worth a check.

CDTi Auto · 11th September 2007, 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon D

Having a read-around on these forums it would seem a few suspect CDT engine start failures seem to lead to cam sensor problems being the cause. Worth a check.

Hi, yeah, saw that and had a Y-Plate Rover 75 Club CDT before that needed a cam sensor and then all was fine, but this one will usually always start after about 20-25 secs of cranking whereas the old CDT just wouldn't or would start depending on how hot the sensor was... and wouldnt always do it from cold either, plus i've heard somewhere that if the rev counter is "showing" revs while cranking but not firing, the cam sensor is supposed to be ok - and mine is showing revs... but i'll wait until it's stone cold to identify if it's a hot start only condition...

CDTi Auto · 12th September 2007, 09:24

More developments - won't start at all now! First thing, got in the car, just turns and turns and turns... nothing, so not a hot start issue, just a "start" issue!

Fingers crossed it's not injectors, but AA man on the way to help diagnose!

CDTi Auto · 12th September 2007, 15:01

AA been and gone.

Fuel pumps & cam sensors tested and all ok. Starts and runs fine on a whiff of "easy start" and will restart again if switched off and restarted, but not after any period of time - and/or if at full temperature, so AA suggested it was fuelling pressure regulator. Injector pipe was slackened from fuel rail end and diesel spraying everywhere when on secondary ignition, but not on crank.

Screws into the end of the fuel rail with 3 pins. On back order with Xpart (good sign it's being used a lot!) so have found one, after about 2 hrs phoning around Landrover dealers - same engine in Freelander and Disco and got a LR dealer in Durham to post one down to me, so will try that and see if it helps. Also very difficult to find within LR as the guy told me they are changing an awful lot of them on Freelanders at the moment - so fingers crossed thats my problem and NOT the injectors, hopefully not as once it's running it's perfect, think its just lacking the necessary fuel rail pressure to get the injectors to open.

Part number is STC 4768 and it's £135ish from Xpart, but only £72 + vat from LR for the same part!!! (The one part number works for both Xpart & LR as they are both served by Caterpillar logistics) so get it from a Landrover dealer.

Even called local BMW dealer who clearly couldnt give a toss and was most unhelpful (BMW Park Lane, London) so steer clear of them.

Fingers crossed!!

Jules · 12th September 2007, 22:37

If the new regulator does't cure it, I'd go for renewing the secondary fuel pump.
Just because there is fuel pressure, it may be insufficient.
Did the AA man just say fuel is there, or did he actually measure the pressure?

Classic symptoms of secondary fuel failure seem to happen over just a couple of days, with sequence of events just like yours! The pumps suffer from brush wear around 70 - 90k miles.

Let us know

JohnDotCom · 12th September 2007, 22:50

I don't need to know that thanks Jules.
Does the Single Pump play up the same at those mileages?

CDTi Auto · 13th September 2007, 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by julesbass

If the new regulator does't cure it, I'd go for renewing the secondary fuel pump.
Just because there is fuel pressure, it may be insufficient.
Did the AA man just say fuel is there, or did he actually measure the pressure?

Classic symptoms of secondary fuel failure seem to happen over just a couple of days, with sequence of events just like yours! The pumps suffer from brush wear around 70 - 90k miles.

Let us know

Hi Jules,

He only said there was fuel there - he wasn't able to measure the pressure as he didn't have the necessary gauges, but I'm going to go with Rover Ron's route of trying to establish any injector leakback first, as both pumps seemed to be "ok" - but if nothing on the injectors, I'll try the rear in tank pump next!

Thanks for your help though - will let you know what I find!

Cheers

Matt

11th September 2007, 19:24	#1
CDTi Auto Regular poster MG ZT V8 260 SE Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Chelsea, London Posts: 55 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Another CDTi starting problem.. I have an 03 plate CDTi auto (87k miles) which has decided it doesn't want to start all of a sudden, but will EVENTUALLY start after about 20 secs of cranking... I have checked the following : Fuel : has about 1/3 tank full. Front fuel pump (near battery/bulkhead) : buzzing away and working fine Rear tank pump under seat : Had seat out and i can feel a buzz and hear a faint whirring, so assume all is well there Fuel filter : changed last service about 5000 miles ago. I've tried letting them both get to pressure (so they both stop pumping) then try to start, but still no joy. It's always taken 2-3 seconds to fire ever since I've had it but now it almost flattens the battery, even with a bit of help from the throttle! Once it's going, it drives fine, however, every now and again when I floor it, it does seem to hesitate a little, then gets going, as if it's not getting enough fuel in time but thats not very often... Only ever tried it hot/warm, not stone cold as its only been playing up today, but will let it go cold tonight and see whats what, so then I might identify the cam sensor...but it is showing revs whilst cranking which is making think that this might not be the culprit... will see what happens in the morning when its had all night to go cold. Any other thoughts/suggestions anyone?

12th September 2007, 22:37	#8
Jules This is my second home ZT 260 SE Twilight and 10 other 75 ZT's :O Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Conwy NORTH WALES Posts: 11,094 Thanks: 512 Thanked 1,116 Times in 763 Posts	If the new regulator does't cure it, I'd go for renewing the secondary fuel pump. Just because there is fuel pressure, it may be insufficient. Did the AA man just say fuel is there, or did he actually measure the pressure? Classic symptoms of secondary fuel failure seem to happen over just a couple of days, with sequence of events just like yours! The pumps suffer from brush wear around 70 - 90k miles. Let us know __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Newbies do now!! 1. Plenum drains..all 3 or 4 year dependent 2. Cooling fan..All speeds functioning 3. Bonnet cable divider block

11th September 2007, 20:05	#2
Simon Banned - Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: - Posts: 10,318 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Duff starter motor? Does the motor sound like it's cranking okay? (Bit of an open-ended question I know but it's a start). Other things are air filter/intake (is it blocked?) and the actual Voltage on the battery. It should read 12V. Any less and usually you start experiencing other electrical anomalies (such as flickering lights and weird dash displays). Could also be over-fueling....? Someone with a little more experience on diesel engines will no doubt be along shortly but these are my ideas for starters (no pun intended....)

11th September 2007, 20:41	#4
Simon Banned - Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: - Posts: 10,318 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	Having a read-around on these forums it would seem a few suspect CDT engine start failures seem to lead to cam sensor problems being the cause. Worth a check.

12th September 2007, 09:24	#6
CDTi Auto Regular poster MG ZT V8 260 SE Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Chelsea, London Posts: 55 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	More developments - won't start at all now! First thing, got in the car, just turns and turns and turns... nothing, so not a hot start issue, just a "start" issue! Fingers crossed it's not injectors, but AA man on the way to help diagnose!

12th September 2007, 15:01	#7
CDTi Auto Regular poster MG ZT V8 260 SE Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Chelsea, London Posts: 55 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	AA been and gone. Fuel pumps & cam sensors tested and all ok. Starts and runs fine on a whiff of "easy start" and will restart again if switched off and restarted, but not after any period of time - and/or if at full temperature, so AA suggested it was fuelling pressure regulator. Injector pipe was slackened from fuel rail end and diesel spraying everywhere when on secondary ignition, but not on crank. Screws into the end of the fuel rail with 3 pins. On back order with Xpart (good sign it's being used a lot!) so have found one, after about 2 hrs phoning around Landrover dealers - same engine in Freelander and Disco and got a LR dealer in Durham to post one down to me, so will try that and see if it helps. Also very difficult to find within LR as the guy told me they are changing an awful lot of them on Freelanders at the moment - so fingers crossed thats my problem and NOT the injectors, hopefully not as once it's running it's perfect, think its just lacking the necessary fuel rail pressure to get the injectors to open. Part number is STC 4768 and it's £135ish from Xpart, but only £72 + vat from LR for the same part!!! (The one part number works for both Xpart & LR as they are both served by Caterpillar logistics) so get it from a Landrover dealer. Even called local BMW dealer who clearly couldnt give a toss and was most unhelpful (BMW Park Lane, London) so steer clear of them. Fingers crossed!!

12th September 2007, 22:50	#9
JohnDotCom * Rover 75 FaceLift Tourer CDTi 170BHP Auto ConnSE 2005 Model Starlight Silver Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Abergele Posts: 28,735 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I don't need to know that thanks Jules. Does the Single Pump play up the same at those mileages?