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Old 21st January 2020, 12:29   #11
wraymond
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Can we limit the variables to judges rather than magistrates? It focuses on the OP more closely.

I’ve known 2 magistrates socially and would rather not be ‘judged’ by either given their private and unguarded opinions!

Yes we do but it's not usually for a traffic offence and the sentence can be appealed and quashed.

Using a tag could mean he could not be a passenger either without the car being spotted by ANPR and stopped by police.

It's not a good idea to combine unrelated offences that were not considered and TIA'd at the original trial.
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Old 21st January 2020, 14:27   #12
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Originally Posted by trikey View Post
The courts will do whatever they see fit at the time, I’m old enough to remember travelling miners being stopped at county lines being refused entry by the police.

There is no standard, never has been never will be, one case I heard of saw a speeding biker get jail and then in the same court a serial offender walked free despite admitting to numerous offences including burglary?!?




The trouble, or the benefit if all things considered, is that there is a range of penalties available to the judge that he can in theory apply in varying degrees of severity. I'm in favour of each case being taken on its merits but the judges personal disposition on the day is too variable to rely on.

I remember the miners too, couldn’t believe what I was seeing. At that time I was a union shop steward and I was enraged at the brutality of what went on. It looked like a Russian Gulag. In that case the minister was told firmly to stop the unrest at any cost. That did more than anything else to destroy public faith in the system and, rightly, it remains firmly in the public mind. Episodes like Hillsborough still occur though. To leave remedies in one individual’s hands on such matters is a recipe for disaster. Although Dukenfield got away with it.

There is a standard, or at least a wide one, to enable a degree of discretion in doubtful cases. This largely means plenty of scope for lawyers rather than judges and invariably causes its own arguments.

However, I remain unconvinced that the penalty for non-payment of a fine should be imprisonment unless it is a clear and unambiguous condition stated at the original conviction.
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Old 21st January 2020, 16:09   #13
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Originally Posted by wraymond View Post
Can we limit the variables to judges rather than magistrates? It focuses on the OP more closely. I’ve known 2 magistrates socially and would rather not be ‘judged’ by either given their private and unguarded opinions!


Yes we do but it's not usually for a traffic offence and the sentence can be appealed and quashed.
Using a tag could mean he could not be a passenger either without the car being spotted by ANPR and stopped by police.
It's not a good idea to combine unrelated offences that were not considered and TIA'd at the original trial.
I think you are not quite getting what I am suggesting, not being rude.
lets say you are convicted in court for smashing a shop window you refuse to pay or you get divorced and your wife wins the prized car, you refuse to hand it over. Court suspends your licence until you comply. My train of thought is that your licence is so valuable you will comply.
I just think the person in the wrong should be inconvenienced if they choose not to pay.

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Old 21st January 2020, 16:14   #14
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Originally Posted by wraymond View Post
The trouble, or the benefit if all things considered, is that there is a range of penalties available to the judge that he can in theory apply in varying degrees of severity. I'm in favour of each case being taken on its merits but the judges personal disposition on the day is too variable to rely on.

I remember the miners too, couldn’t believe what I was seeing. At that time I was a union shop steward and I was enraged at the brutality of what went on. It looked like a Russian Gulag. In that case the minister was told firmly to stop the unrest at any cost. That did more than anything else to destroy public faith in the system and, rightly, it remains firmly in the public mind. Episodes like Hillsborough still occur though. To leave remedies in one individual’s hands on such matters is a recipe for disaster. Although Dukenfield got away with it.

There is a standard, or at least a wide one, to enable a degree of discretion in doubtful cases. This largely means plenty of scope for lawyers rather than judges and invariably causes its own arguments.

However, I remain unconvinced that the penalty for non-payment of a fine should be imprisonment unless it is a clear and unambiguous condition stated at the original conviction.
I would not quote miners as victims bearing in mind the death of David James Wilkie. That sticks in my mind more then anything else about the strike. Hopefully that enraged you too. We digress

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Old 21st January 2020, 19:16   #15
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Can police cross county lines during a chase without seeking permission?
With the lack of resource, unless police are targeting these people the chances of just coming across them while out and about is remote particularly in the countryside. I think a neighbour last year got done for not mot but it was 3 months out of date and car used Monday to Friday in all that time. Should be passed to DVLA to issue fines as they do no tax

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Old 21st January 2020, 20:21   #16
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I think you are not quite getting what I am suggesting, not being rude.
lets say you are convicted in court for smashing a shop window you refuse to pay or you get divorced and your wife wins the prized car, you refuse to hand it over. Court suspends your licence until you comply. My train of thought is that your licence is so valuable you will comply.
I just think the person in the wrong should be inconvenienced if they choose not to pay.

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These are two different offences. Thought I covered this in post 2 with item 3a. Are you saying courts are able to do this now (ie suspend the licence for non-payment of a fine for a different offence) or should be in the future?

Personally, I don't know but it seems irrational to me. Where would you draw the line? Is there not an existing remedy of, say, bailiffs seizing goods 'to the value...'? Perhaps leading to Contempt of Court?
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Old 21st January 2020, 20:46   #17
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These are two different offences. Thought I covered this in post 2 with item 3a. Are you saying courts are able to do this now (ie suspend the licence for non-payment of a fine for a different offence) or should be in the future?

Personally, I don't know but it seems irrational to me. Where would you draw the line? Is there not an existing remedy of, say, bailiffs seizing goods 'to the value...'? Perhaps leading to Contempt of Court?
woe hang on, your saying that not paying the fine is an offence, I'm not.
Yes bailiffs can be used but if there is not enough to take they may not take anything, all the while the "victim" is not compensated.

judge judy ( in America) seems to suspend a driving license, not sure a UK court can.

example
Adult child lives at home, has money in the bank, car on finance.
When bailiffs turn up to parents home and parents can prove all in the house is theirs bailiffs, cant take anything.

In this example bailiffs are powerless.

I think it would be a good idea but you don't, makes for a good discussion

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Old 21st January 2020, 21:02   #18
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Would this mean we just have more people driving without a license ?
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Old 21st January 2020, 22:00   #19
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Would this mean we just have more people driving without a license ?

possible but then they commit an offence. I'd hope they would pay their dues and so get their licence back. perhaps those that would drive without a licence may already have a chequered past. I'm thinking more of mr average

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Old 22nd January 2020, 09:44   #20
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Thanks, I welcome the discussion! The more thought given, the more the unintended consequences loom:

An offender gets fined for speeding and for one reason or another fails to pay the fine.

At the moment (I think) the court would need to take further action to achieve payment. That would mean the court reviewing the case and would be limited to the options available to them, not necessarily with the offender in front of them.

Suppose the subject needs his licence for his work, either to get to it or he is a driver. Suppose the law now enables his licence to be suspended for non-payment of his fine. Now he can neither get to work nor do it if he could get there. How do we suppose the fine gets paid? He could conceivably be sent to prison, possibly for the original sin of exceeding 30mph, with the fine still not paid.

Draconian to say the least, and in my view over the top for the sin of offending the judges dignity or for what could be a very minor contempt. Judges already are not famous for their worldliness and, following a bad seafood lunch, might wield a heavy hand to crack a nut.

As I said earlier, there are already adequate options to follow and I can't see any good reason for slavishly following our trans-Atlantic cousins in their legal entanglements by increasing government's heavy ill-considered hand.
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