EU vote?

[stevenicks]

Believe me, we will be OK, it will not be all doom and gloom as they want you to believe. Let's show some balls and take control of our own affairs once again. Rule Britannia and all that

[topman]

Originally Posted by Mike Noc

That's the elephant in the room for the leave campaigners - everything will have to be negotiated, and they can't give much in the way of hard information until the negotiations have taken place.

Possibly, but it's very difficult to convince people if there is no plan. 'We'll sort it out later' isn't much of a plan.

[Polly]

Originally Posted by topman

I'm not sure which way to vote at the moment, I think if those groups who wish to leave want to win I think they need some information on their plans. At the moment to my mind they've put very little information out there about how it will all work if we leave? Trade deals, people's right to live and work, our realtionship with the EU after leaving etc.

You questions are all answered out there somewhere, it's just a question of who to believe
http://www.betteroffout.net/the-case...out-withdrawl/
And perhaps
https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-m...ee-55-million/

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[topman]

Originally Posted by Polly

You questions are all answered out there somewhere, it's just a question of who to believe
http://www.betteroffout.net/the-case...out-withdrawl/
And perhaps
https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-m...ee-55-million/

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Not bad but I think they need something more positive and what they think will happen rather than catch up.

[wraymond]

Originally Posted by topman

I'm not sure which way to vote at the moment, I think if those groups who wish to leave want to win I think they need some information on their plans. At the moment to my mind they've put very little information out there about how it will all work if we leave? Trade deals, people's right to live and work, our realtionship with the EU after leaving etc.

Everyone knows you can't guarantee the future. And a guess is just that, even if educated. The others interpret the past, leaving us to make a judgement about their methods, aims and reliability.

Trade deals: we already have historical trading and contemporary arrangements outside the EU. We trade with most of the rest of the world and the old Commonwealth would be delighted to extend trade. Following our full membership of EU we mainly traded within it to gain advantage of low tariffs, not because we were in trouble elsewhere.

Major industries still in the EU would be unlikely to close the book on partnerships already in existence - leave aside the number of foreign owners of highly successful UK businesses. With regard to the USA and the Obama ridiculous threat - rubbish! What queue was he talking about because there isn't one! The USA is only engaged in one trade deal at the moment -TTIP - there is plenty of scope for negotiation and they would be more than likely jump at talks.

The right to live and work is only relevant to those wishing to come here and we would then have the automatic right to refuse entry to those we deemed to be unsuitable to be here for any reason, a big advantage. We retain total control of who we accept as desirable or to our advantage.

I imagine there would be a degree of resentment from the leaders of the EU but doubt that would be for long - they would be trying for further negotiations to keep us 'in'. In the meantime, the money we pay for membership could be used to our own advantage.

On the question of the difference between net and gross expenditure of our membership costs (rebates and discounts in contention at the moment) it's true we get back some money. The point is we would pay nothing and the amount they presently keep we would retain and use on things we ourselves want, rather than ludicrous schemes invented just for the sake of spending it.. So Boris's £350 million a day is accurate! That is a phenomenal amount of money!

The Remainders are trying to force a vote by deliberately using worst scenario scare stories and trying to engender a fear of the unknown by denying our excellence and innovation and talking down the country. Disgraceful and shameful. The Leavers haven't got 'evidence' to marshal because it hasn't happened yet so can't be lied about.

Earlier I posted a link to an article about the putative EU army (already agreed to by Germany, France and Spain). Cameron said with our veto it couldn't happen. Unfortunately, he forgot about the clause in the treaty that allows the main veto to be overruled by any agreement forged between a group of nine members! Either he is a twerp or a liar. They want full sharing of resources, command and bases. Positioned in mainland Europe. Guess who will assume command? No contest.

It was agreed in the surrender in 1945 that Germany would never again be allowed to organise and retain armed forces. One generation later, what's happened to those formal agreements and conditions? Nato is the saving grace, not failed unelected politicians. This issue is far too important to allow to slip by unnoticed. The necessary habit of vigilance appears to be an early casualty.

[topman]

I'm sure that's all true, however I think they need to starting spelling out how they wish it to be, not so much the EU will do this and that. I'm sure the other side is doing something else, however they wish to change the status quo not keep it, the emphasis is on them IMO. Plenty of work to be done yet.

[suzublu]

Those who wish us to stay, generally have their own agendas for doing so, equally, those wishing for the out vote, also have their own agendas We, the populace, the voters/deciders, have to make our minds up purely on whose agendas are the least disruptive I have never voted in my life, as in my opinion, they're all the same, but, for this, I will make my decision to vote for my country, not a political party Just my opinion btw, not forum thingy stuff

[HarryM1BYT]

Originally Posted by suzublu

but, for this, I will make my decision to vote for my country, not a political party Just my opinion btw, not forum thingy stuff

I only started to bother to vote in the past few years. Not indifference, there just wasn't anyone worthy of my vote.

This one is an unmissable one for me, I will definitely be voting.

[Polly]

What irritates me, is the dishonesty of the present government. The two sides of the debate were each assigned a lead group, and budget limits imposed on each. Now, whilst the Brexit movement are slogging along merrily within budget, it wouldn't matter one jot whether the remains had a budget or not, because the government has already blown it completely out of the water.
Brexit tell us Turkey is about to join, and hey presto, oh no, Britain would be able to veto that. (Note COULD, not WOULD) but then we hear that the veto could be over ruled, so perhaps we are not in control after all.
The government are repeating the tactics used on the Scotland vote, blatant scaremongering, and by having no plan B, they couldn't be questioned on it. Then half way through the debate, throw a spanner in the works by saying "of course you won't be able to keep the pound" (whose pound is it anyway) and move the goalposts and offer massive reform if we stay. In the end, we voted to stay, without knowing what we were actually voting for.
With that in mind, I fully expect to read in Monday's paper, that we are going to completely re-negotiate our terms with the EU, notwithstanding the fact that we achieved zilch from the last round of negotiations.
I don't need to be told exactly what the world will be like if we leave, I have a fair idea of what I think it should be like. I will also know that my taxes are not going to that top heavy self appointed institution over whom I have no redress, and if the UK government are not behaving in the way which I think appropriate, then I will at least have the opportunity to say so at the ballot box.


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[E_T_V]

This is what I posted on another car forum about the same question

It is a really interesting topic which it is healthy to have a debate about, and with any luck might help engage some of the younger members of the population into thinking a little more about politics etc rather than the general apathy that seems to reign supreme.

Immigration is always a sensitive issue but historically in the long term we have generally benefitted from it, whether that be from inside or outside europe. In a very general sense people that can get off of their NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD- to look for a better life, generally contribute more when they find it than someone born into it who sits on their NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD- and just moans about it. Yes we don't want hoards of scroungers arriving and then giving them big benefits cheques, but that is within our gift to control - not the EU's - you can't blame the EU for our governments inaction on dishing out big cheques the moment people arrive with no means of support.

In the short term any significant change (or indeed uncertainty) means our heavily service reliant economy takes a dive. In the long term things might get better, or may get worse - that is prettymuch always the view though no matter whether you are in or out. How long that short term dive is though is very uncertain. 3 years, 5 years a decade? No-one is really sure how long it'll take things to stabilise, and how deep the dive is also isn't clear. is it 0.1% or 10%?

Generally I'm on the "In" side at the moment. As my livelihood depends on exports to europe which will become far harder (more complicated, more red tape) and more expensive (trade barriers/agreements) if we exit. If we exit, the cost to the company I work for is likely to be millions which will almost certainly mean job losses. And this will be similar for most companies that export goods to EU markets.