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Old 11th January 2020, 11:57   #21
bl52krz
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Hi Simon. I think that the reason that timing belts break are numerous.I also think that the reason tensioners give up the ghost are numerous also. It does not matter to whoever it happens to, it is a bummer. The usual, I would expect. Is that the material the belts are made from has been tested time and time again to destruction.Think of as many scenarios as you can for that. It is all subjective if someone does have one of the three belts ‘go’. I tried to get my son to have the belts changed at around the correct time (6 years). His comment was that it was a lot of money to part with and he would risk not having them done. Luckily it paid off for him. I have only started the engine uparound four times since September, and every time I do so, I am waiting for a Big Bang and san fairy ann to another KV6 engine. It starts first time every time on the button, so is still in fine fettle, upto now. Although I intend changing the belts before it is put into service,I want to be nosey and see what the belts look like. I expect to find rounding off of the shoulders on the belts, which (could) eventually lead to belt slip. Also slight slackness in the rear belts, not a great deal, but enough if the engine was put under stress could prove to be its undoing. I also remember a post by one of our overseas members, where he undertook to changing the belts, and found damage to one of the belts, there was a ‘nick’ in it, and this again could have caused a tragic loss of engine, possibly.Tensioners? I had the auxiliary belt tensioner go on my 220sd, luckily only one mile from home, the day after we had returned from Bournemouth where we had stopped for Christmas.Mileage was around 80,000.i was told it was usual for them to last around that mileage by a mechanic. My whole point is that there are so many different scenarios that can arise with relation to belt/ tensioner breakages, it is impossible to quantify if, or when it will happen. Sorry, but if I am told that if I do not put oil in my engine it will seize up, then I put oil in my engine. As an aside,a friend of mine took his B*W to the garage for servicing before Christmas. When he got it back, after driving it for a few miles, the engine developed a rattle. He took it back to the garage, and they told him that there was no oil in the engine!!!!! This story is obviously ongoing at the moment as to why there was no oil in the engine? Scenarios,scenarios, scenarios.It all comes down, in my humble opinion to luck with a capital L.
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Old 11th January 2020, 20:51   #22
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Originally Posted by SD1too View Post
incompetent fitting probably due to avoiding using the proper service tools should have been considered.

Simon
Using the proper tools has nothing to do with competence, it just makes the job easier.
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Old 11th January 2020, 22:14   #23
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Using the proper tools has nothing to do with competence, it just makes the job easier.
The proper tools are the only way to ensure the valve timing is spot on.

The floating sprockets are due to the manufacturing variations and tolerances for new belts.

Without using the tools you can fit a new belt but the valve timing might not be spot on.

That is according to the person that designed the camshaft drive system for the original KV6.

I would argue that fitting a new belt but not ensuring that the valve timing is spot on is not the correct way to do the job.

But it won't break the engine not to use them, and if you want to save some hassle and the cost of bolts/seals then why not? Is that incompetence? It is certainly not the best way to do the job.
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Old 11th January 2020, 23:00   #24
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The proper tools are the only way to ensure the valve timing is spot on.

I would argue that fitting a new belt but not ensuring that the valve timing is spot on is not the correct way to do the job.

But it won't break the engine not to use them, and if you want to save some hassle and the cost of bolts/seals then why not? Is that incompetence? It is certainly not the best way to do the job.

I agree that to use the proper tools is the correct way ( I have them ) but I still stand by my post saying that to not use special tools the tech is incompetent.
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Old 12th January 2020, 06:38   #25
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Well I’m one of the people who believe in service intervals so I changed my belts before both time and miles were due, always have done and always will. Why take the risk for the sake of a few extra miles?
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Old 12th January 2020, 16:01   #26
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Me too Les. If you think anything of the car its not worse the risk.
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Old 12th January 2020, 17:56   #27
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Blah ... Blah ... Blah ...Post no. 20 ... Brian
When the first Boeing 737 Max crashed in Indonesia you would have upheld the manufacturer's position. How could an accomplished company such as Boeing possibly be wrong? How could the fate of a single aeroplane be significant? When the second crash occurred you would still have defended Boeing for the same corporate and statistical reasons. Fortunately the rest of the world became suspicious. Even though only two flights out of probably hundreds were involved, the evidence was there that something was amiss and blaming the pilots didn't wash any more.

I hope that you can see the parallel here, though I think that your ego will continue to reign supreme.

Simon
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Old 12th January 2020, 18:06   #28
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Originally Posted by SD1too View Post
When the first Boeing 737 Max crashed in Indonesia you would have upheld the manufacturer's position. How could an accomplished company such as Boeing possibly be wrong? How could the fate of a single aeroplane be significant? When the second crash occurred you would still have defended Boeing for the same corporate and statistical reasons. Fortunately the rest of the world became suspicious. Even though only two flights out of probably hundreds were involved, the evidence was there that something was amiss and blaming the pilots didn't wash any more.

I hope that you can see the parallel here, though I think that your ego will continue to reign supreme.

Simon
No Simon, what I think is you have crossed the line by using such an an awful analogy as a comparison.

Three hundred and forty six souls perished in those two aeroplane crashes

I think you should be ashamed of yourself, quite ashamed.

You sir are an absolute moron of the highest order, I would use stronger language, however I think everyone will get the overall picture.

Brian
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Old 12th January 2020, 18:09   #29
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I agree that to use the proper tools is the correct way ( I have them ) but I still stand by my post saying that to not use special tools the tech is incompetent.
Yes, agree - a deliberate decision to do the job such that the timing may not be spot on doesn't necessarily mean incompetence, as long as it has been done well. It could be a decision based on the availability of tools, timescales (i.e. takes too long to obtain them) or cost (severe penny-pinching owner!).

I think this can be justified by the fact the designer of the original KV6 camshaft drive system had stated that there was a service bulletin describing how to do the job with the tools, by making new marks on the secondary pulleys (N.B. the original KV6 had floating rear pulleys too). However, he didn't produce a copy of that procedure, only a very brief description, so I haven't seen it myself.

Part of the reasoning for my post was to highlight the fact that the tools do much more than make the job easier - they are needed to ensure the engine will run perfectly - I hope I didn't upset you with my post, that was not my intention
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Old 12th January 2020, 18:39   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD1too View Post
When the first Boeing 737 Max crashed in Indonesia you would have upheld the manufacturer's position. How could an accomplished company such as Boeing possibly be wrong? How could the fate of a single aeroplane be significant? When the second crash occurred you would still have defended Boeing for the same corporate and statistical reasons. Fortunately the rest of the world became suspicious. Even though only two flights out of probably hundreds were involved, the evidence was there that something was amiss and blaming the pilots didn't wash any more.

I hope that you can see the parallel here, though I think that your ego will continue to reign supreme.

Simon
Erm what? This is a rather disturbing analogy. Leaving aside the irrelevance (because the faulty Boeing components had specific but miscalculated parameters or variables misunderstood) and lives lost, it demonstrates to me that you do not understand the concept of erring on the side of caution, nor margins of error.

But since you have used it, I will direct the same analogy to your guidance on the belts. Boeing, currently are being investigated, and are likely to be held culpable for the deaths of all those on board, as well as the compensating companies who purchased the aircraft. So with this analogy, you are saying now is that you, the advice giver, WILL stand over all engines and labour involved, damaged by a snapped belt, if its change has been ignored after reading your guidance (obviously with the proviso, that the pulleys and tensioners have all been checked and spin freely).

A company can be wrong (as can an individual), however the difference is, these companies stand over their mistakes and compensate for them. Companies avoid these positions by building the margins of error to accommodate variables, ie different uses of materials or different driving styles and locations. Their position is not about making money, but rather about not losing it.



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