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Old 17th January 2019, 18:54   #31
COLVERT
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Just curious but are you saying everybody should take on board a concept they disagree with ??

Do you mean by--Take on Board---Accept or simply consider.

If you mean consider then I have done your post justice by considering it.---

Accept ??? some, but not all.---

The seat of your pants subjective items I question.
The objective assessments using all the modern technology available to us I tend to believe.
Our own bodies are very poor instruments to use to get comprehensive and accurate answers.

Try this.------

Take three small containers.

Put quite warm water in one. ( hot as you can bear. )
Put tepid, room temperature water in another.
Put cold, icy water in the third.

Put the forefinger of each hand , one in the cold, one in the hot.
Hold this for 30 seconds.

Now put both fingers in the tepid water.

Which finger are you going to believe ????????????????

The one that says HOT
or the one that says COLD.

Both your fingers. Both attached to your body.--

These sensations are SUBJECTIVE .

Just like using your body as an instrument to accurately assess what your surroundings are like. Something that feels warm to you might just as easily feel cold to someone else.

Your opinion if something is cold or hot to you is just that, your opinion.

You cannot judge what is happening in a neighbours house simply by using your opinion. The fabric of a neighbours house might be totally different to your house. Comparative heating costs, one to another, are not really relevant.

To get an accurate answer to have to compare like with like.

Any other method is flawed and full of inconsistencies.








I do like these types of discussions as most often the truth will out.

I don't mind being proved wrong as I think that life, until you die, is a learning curve and I'm whizzing around on it.---



He went------Thata way.---




PS. I am a Tin Foil advocate.---Lol.

Last edited by COLVERT; 17th January 2019 at 19:03..
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Old 17th January 2019, 19:11   #32
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Our local council look after us pensioners. Tin foil behind rad is one,also fitted foam draught excluders along bottom edge of interior doors. They worked O.K. until our dog took a liking to ripping them to pieces.
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Old 17th January 2019, 20:01   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COLVERT View Post
Just curious but are you saying everybody should take on board a concept they disagree with ??

Do you mean by--Take on Board---Accept or simply consider.

If you mean consider then I have done your post justice by considering it.---

Accept ??? some, but not all.---

The seat of your pants subjective items I question.
The objective assessments using all the modern technology available to us I tend to believe.
Our own bodies are very poor instruments to use to get comprehensive and accurate answers.

Try this.------

Take three small containers.

Put quite warm water in one. ( hot as you can bear. )
Put tepid, room temperature water in another.
Put cold, icy water in the third.

Put the forefinger of each hand , one in the cold, one in the hot.
Hold this for 30 seconds.

Now put both fingers in the tepid water.

Which finger are you going to believe ????????????????

The one that says HOT
or the one that says COLD.

Both your fingers. Both attached to your body.--

These sensations are SUBJECTIVE .

Just like using your body as an instrument to accurately assess what your surroundings are like. Something that feels warm to you might just as easily feel cold to someone else.

Your opinion if something is cold or hot to you is just that, your opinion.

You cannot judge what is happening in a neighbours house simply by using your opinion. The fabric of a neighbours house might be totally different to your house. Comparative heating costs, one to another, are not really relevant.

To get an accurate answer to have to compare like with like.

Any other method is flawed and full of inconsistencies.








I do like these types of discussions as most often the truth will out.

I don't mind being proved wrong as I think that life, until you die, is a learning curve and I'm whizzing around on it.---



He went------Thata way.---




PS. I am a Tin Foil advocate.---Lol.
Nice try but the reality is this - how much energy does it take to keep your hot water container hot - and how much energy does it take to heat it from cold, then let it go cold, then heat it up, then let it go cold .... etc etc - and repeat.

And given that the ideal scenario is to keep it hot, all the time, then the reality that KEEPING it hot once up to temp costs no more than the repetitive hot/cold/hot/cold is surely worthy of any reasonable persons consideration?

As for your accusation that my analysis is merely subjective then you really should get to grips with the real meaning of “subjective” because to use that word you make the assumption that there is a lack of facts.

But the reality is as I have already stated - my bills are no more than what I used to pay before we put our heating on 24/7 rather than the old way of it only coming on in the evening and in the morning.

We have now done this in two houses - a large four bed detached and now a largeish three bed bungalow. We can compare what we paid before and what was paid before by the previous residents of where we live now and we pay much the same despite energy cost rises!

A neighbour still sits in the cold during the day and goes to bed with an electric blanket.

We don’t. Our boiler stays on 24/7 and the house is warmed right through such that we are toasty warm.

I do believe you have a closed mind - because if you didn’t - you would not allow you preconceptions to limit you ability to say “ that’s interesting - if true that would be worth trying”

Instead - you have used a deeply flawed concept that relies on how an individuals nerves in a finger can identify temperature differences in three water containers.

Whilst I don’t doubt that a finger WILL have the difficulty you outline - my analysis of what is happening in our home is based upon thermostat settings as an accurate and reproducible measure of temperature and our energy bills as an accuarate measure of consumption.

If your finger is cold - I suggest you find somewhere warm to place it!!
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Old 17th January 2019, 20:49   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcydog View Post
Nice try but the reality is this - how much energy does it take to keep your hot water container hot - and how much energy does it take to heat it from cold, then let it go cold, then heat it up, then let it go cold .... etc etc - and repeat.

And given that the ideal scenario is to keep it hot, all the time, then the reality that KEEPING it hot once up to temp costs no more than the repetitive hot/cold/hot/cold is surely worthy of any reasonable persons consideration?

As for your accusation that my analysis is merely subjective then you really should get to grips with the real meaning of “subjective” because to use that word you make the assumption that there is a lack of facts.


Those that have studied physics will know that heat loss is affected by a number of variables - the difference in temperature either side of the boundary, the area of the boundary, the thickness of the boundary and the thermal conductivity of the boundary.
This is expressed as the formula :
Q/t = KA (T1 -T2)/d
Q/t = rate of heat transfer - joules/sec or watts
K = the thermal conductivity of material that the heat is going through
A = the area
d = thickness of the material.
T1 & T2 is the internal and external temperature
In the case of a house the only variable is T1 & T2

Now if the house is maintained at a constant temperature then the heat loss is constant (assuming outside temperature does not change).
However if one only heats the house when it is occupied then the heat loss will drop with time as T1 reduces.

The thermal mass of air in the house is small and when the heating comes back on then the heat required to bring room upto temperature is less than the heat loss if you were heating it 24/7.
I have ignored the effect of dew point temperature.
This is not subjective but scientific fact
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Old 18th January 2019, 07:33   #35
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I am not sure how I am going to live with this, but I have to say that I agree with Clive (Darcydog) on this point. The fabric of the house should be heated and that includes the wall behind the radiator.

The ideal scenario is one where the heat reflecting/insulating layer is represented by the outer layer of the house wall, not the inner. This will provide a temperature gradient in the outer layer and the house walls will retain the heat thus ensuring that the room temperature remains relatively constant.
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Old 18th January 2019, 08:47   #36
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I am not sure how I am going to live with this, but I have to say that I agree with Clive (Darcydog) on this point. The fabric of the house should be heated and that includes the wall behind the radiator.

The ideal scenario is one where the heat reflecting/insulating layer is represented by the outer layer of the house wall, not the inner. This will provide a temperature gradient in the outer layer and the house walls will retain the heat thus ensuring that the room temperature remains relatively constant.
Thank you Maninder - I really appreciate the supreme effort that required!!!!
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Old 18th January 2019, 09:05   #37
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Originally Posted by another_clean_sheet View Post
Those that have studied physics will know that heat loss is affected by a number of variables - the difference in temperature either side of the boundary, the area of the boundary, the thickness of the boundary and the thermal conductivity of the boundary.
This is expressed as the formula :
Q/t = KA (T1 -T2)/d
Q/t = rate of heat transfer - joules/sec or watts
K = the thermal conductivity of material that the heat is going through
A = the area
d = thickness of the material.
T1 & T2 is the internal and external temperature
In the case of a house the only variable is T1 & T2

Now if the house is maintained at a constant temperature then the heat loss is constant (assuming outside temperature does not change).
However if one only heats the house when it is occupied then the heat loss will drop with time as T1 reduces.

The thermal mass of air in the house is small and when the heating comes back on then the heat required to bring room upto temperature is less than the heat loss if you were heating it 24/7.
I have ignored the effect of dew point temperature.
This is not subjective but scientific fact
Exactly correct - heat loss to T2 will obviously drop as T1 decreases. But I don’t want T1 to decrease!!!

Earlier it was stated that a dry house is a warmer house - even advocating the use of a dehumidifier which will incur yet more energy usage and cost.

An easier way of removing moisture (that usually occurs as the temperature fluctuates up and down - as the frozen condensate on my car windows testified this morning!) is to keep the whole house at a temperature whereby condensation is kept to an absolute minimum.

And this is why I say that in this scenario it is probably unwise to ignore the dew point temperature because a temp of circa 20degC would most likely feel uncomfortable if the relative humidity is high.

Whereas a house fully warmed through and relatively “dry” as a consequence is comfortable.

It seems a strange concept to me to heat/don’t heat, heat/don’t heat such that condensation builds up and so a dehumidifier has to be recommended

Last edited by Darcydog; 18th January 2019 at 09:07..
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Old 18th January 2019, 10:20   #38
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All buildings have a "time constant" due to the thermal capacity of the walls etc. If you let the structure cool by only having the heating at set times, it will take time to bring it all up to the stable point each time.

I agree with 24/7 adding only that with a circulation water temperature related to the outside temp (ie weather related) and with a heat recovery system to allow the controlled exchange of fresh air, you gain the best of all approaches. A warm house with a better controlled humidity.
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Old 18th January 2019, 10:38   #39
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Originally Posted by KWIL View Post
All buildings have a "time constant" due to the thermal capacity of the walls etc. If you let the structure cool by only having the heating at set times, it will take time (And energy of course)to bring it all up to the stable point each time.

I agree with 24/7 adding only that with a circulation water temperature related to the outside temp (ie weather related) and with a heat recovery system to allow the controlled exchange of fresh air, you gain the best of all approaches. A warm house with a better controlled humidity.
Thank you - I agree totally. I believe the “lag” we experience at the start of every winter when the boiler comes on a lot is where we are reducing the relative humidity of the house.

After a few weeks or so the house drys out and is easier to maintain at a comfortable temperature. Ventilation is absolutely crucial.
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Old 18th January 2019, 17:24   #40
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Originally Posted by Darcydog View Post
Thank you - I agree totally. I believe the “lag” we experience at the start of every winter when the boiler comes on a lot is where we are reducing the relative humidity of the house.

After a few weeks or so the house drys out and is easier to maintain at a comfortable temperature. Ventilation is absolutely crucial.

Well my heating goes off in the evening shortly before I go to bed and comes on about half an hour before I get up in the morning. I live in a 300 year wood framed cottage so insulation is not the best so last night when the outside temperature dropped to -4degrees, the lounge dropped to 16.2 degrees. Upstairs would be obviously warmer. There was no condensation on any of the double glazed windows in the morning.

At the moment the lounge is at 19.8 degrees and the humidity is at 48%. Ideal humidity is considered to be between 40% and 60%
All achieved without dehumidifiers and heating the house 24/7
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