Appealing a parking ticket - would I have any luck?

[Number 6]

Originally Posted by mh007

Just takes you to the main site.

Here it is in full


Chatbot lawyer overturns 160,000 parking tickets in London and New York

Private parking firms CANNOT fine you. Tickets at supermarkets or private car parks may be disguised as fines, but they are really just invoices.

Clamping of motor vehicles on private land is a criminal offence Section 54 of Chapter 2 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and clamping vehicles on public roads is illegal under Regulation 17(3) of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013 when the driver (not necessarily the owner) has not received a statutory Notice of Enforcement, or the vehicle does not belong to the liable person.

It is not illegal to clamp a debtors car parked on his own private land. See Paragraph 211 of the explanatory notes.

It is also illegal for bailiffs to clamp or seize goods not wholly belonging to the debtor, Paragraph 10 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.

The regulations enable parking companies to ask the driver to pay an unpaid parking charge, but the regulations do not provide for ‘penalties’ or any sums greater than the actual pre-estimate of a loss to the regulated company. If your overstay in a regulated car park cost 30p and the parking company spends a £1 disbursement for sending you a demand then the most that can lawfully be claimed from you is £1.30.

DVLA fees are subscription based and there is no specific cost to looking up the registered keeper of a vehicle and the parking company will already have this subscription so there are no actual disbursements claimable from the driver under these regulations.

If the parking company is not a member of an Accredited Trade Association (ATA) or does not use Parking on Private Land Appeals (POPLA) service for its appeals then the company is not compliant with regulations, or the company is unregulated and the driver or keeper does not have to pay the ticket.

Here is the Department for Transport official guidance on private parking tickets issued on private land from 01 October 2012.

As these regulations are new and drivers may not fully understand it, private parking companies may take advantage of this by pretending the regulations give companies a right to charge penalties for unpaid private parking tickets.

This is not true. If you receive a demand greater than the actual parking charge you would have otherwise paid plus the actual provable disbursements the company has paid in sending you a demand being about 1 including the 2nd class stamp, then you can reply using the template below and send it with your appeal against the parking charge notice on the grounds the demand is too high.

The template letter cites the regulations chapter and verse to dispel any notion a parking company is entitled to make a gain by charging drivers more than the original unpaid parking charge and the disbursement paid to send you the demand in the post. There is no such thing as “discounts” for early payment.

Appeal if you have been overcharged.

Template letter

Private car parks are usually unmanned and take your vehicle registration using ANPR when you drive in. You enter your vehicle registration into the machine when you buy your ticket, but if you don’t buy a ticket or enter a wrong registration, the registered keeper receives a demand through the post.

If you are dealing with a private parking ticket on private land issued before 01 October 2012 then you do not have pay it and it is unenforceable because private parking became a regulated activity from 01 October 2012. You may still get a series of letters, or threatograms sent through the post to the vehicle’s registered keeper. The following is an example sequence of letters following an unregulated unpaid parking charge notice from Premier Parking Solutions Ltd

Example Parking Charge Notice issued before 01 October 2012: – designed to imitate a Regulation 9 Penalty Charge Notice as amended in 2007

First Reminder – about 30 days after the event

Second Reminder about 80 days after the event

Third reminder about 120 days after the event

Then nothing .

NEVER appeal a private ticket because if you do it will be rejected and you are wasting your time The private parking ticket industry is an unregulated activity and the example below confirms the rejection letter suggests it is sent to all appellants.

Just ignore them and it will go away. If a parking company tries to litigate you then the most he can claim from you is the amount you overstayed your ticket.

A footnote is that since November 2015 cars that park in free spaces and then over stay can be fined as Supreme Court has sided with their argument in a court decision: https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/pri...ing-penalties/ (Thanks to John Wall for forwarding this to us).

Further update from Sam Wilkins – There are two accredited trade associations to the DVLA dealing with parking operators within their memberships – one is the British Parking Association who have an independent appeals service called POPLA (parking on private land appeals and a Code of Practice, www.britishparking.co.uk . The other is the Independent Parking Committee who have their own Independent Appeals Service and also a Code of Practice www.theipc.info . These are two separate organisations.

Can we suggest that anyone who has specific issues relating to parking tickets and conflict resolution contact their local Citizen’s advice or a solicitor if they are unsure.



ere it is in full :-

[clf]

Originally Posted by Number 6

Here it is in full


Chatbot lawyer overturns 160,000 parking tickets in London and New York

Private parking firms CANNOT fine you. Tickets at supermarkets or private car parks may be disguised as fines, but they are really just invoices.

Clamping of motor vehicles on private land is a criminal offence Section 54 of Chapter 2 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and clamping vehicles on public roads is illegal under Regulation 17(3) of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013 when the driver (not necessarily the owner) has not received a statutory Notice of Enforcement, or the vehicle does not belong to the liable person.

It is not illegal to clamp a debtors car parked on his own private land. See Paragraph 211 of the explanatory notes.

It is also illegal for bailiffs to clamp or seize goods not wholly belonging to the debtor, Paragraph 10 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.

The regulations enable parking companies to ask the driver to pay an unpaid parking charge, but the regulations do not provide for ‘penalties’ or any sums greater than the actual pre-estimate of a loss to the regulated company. If your overstay in a regulated car park cost 30p and the parking company spends a £1 disbursement for sending you a demand then the most that can lawfully be claimed from you is £1.30.

DVLA fees are subscription based and there is no specific cost to looking up the registered keeper of a vehicle and the parking company will already have this subscription so there are no actual disbursements claimable from the driver under these regulations.

If the parking company is not a member of an Accredited Trade Association (ATA) or does not use Parking on Private Land Appeals (POPLA) service for its appeals then the company is not compliant with regulations, or the company is unregulated and the driver or keeper does not have to pay the ticket.

Here is the Department for Transport official guidance on private parking tickets issued on private land from 01 October 2012.

As these regulations are new and drivers may not fully understand it, private parking companies may take advantage of this by pretending the regulations give companies a right to charge penalties for unpaid private parking tickets.

This is not true. If you receive a demand greater than the actual parking charge you would have otherwise paid plus the actual provable disbursements the company has paid in sending you a demand being about 1 including the 2nd class stamp, then you can reply using the template below and send it with your appeal against the parking charge notice on the grounds the demand is too high.

The template letter cites the regulations chapter and verse to dispel any notion a parking company is entitled to make a gain by charging drivers more than the original unpaid parking charge and the disbursement paid to send you the demand in the post. There is no such thing as “discounts” for early payment.

Appeal if you have been overcharged.

Template letter

Private car parks are usually unmanned and take your vehicle registration using ANPR when you drive in. You enter your vehicle registration into the machine when you buy your ticket, but if you don’t buy a ticket or enter a wrong registration, the registered keeper receives a demand through the post.

If you are dealing with a private parking ticket on private land issued before 01 October 2012 then you do not have pay it and it is unenforceable because private parking became a regulated activity from 01 October 2012. You may still get a series of letters, or threatograms sent through the post to the vehicle’s registered keeper. The following is an example sequence of letters following an unregulated unpaid parking charge notice from Premier Parking Solutions Ltd

Example Parking Charge Notice issued before 01 October 2012: – designed to imitate a Regulation 9 Penalty Charge Notice as amended in 2007

First Reminder – about 30 days after the event

Second Reminder about 80 days after the event

Third reminder about 120 days after the event

Then nothing .

NEVER appeal a private ticket because if you do it will be rejected and you are wasting your time The private parking ticket industry is an unregulated activity and the example below confirms the rejection letter suggests it is sent to all appellants.

Just ignore them and it will go away. If a parking company tries to litigate you then the most he can claim from you is the amount you overstayed your ticket.

A footnote is that since November 2015 cars that park in free spaces and then over stay can be fined as Supreme Court has sided with their argument in a court decision: https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/pri...ing-penalties/ (Thanks to John Wall for forwarding this to us).

Further update from Sam Wilkins – There are two accredited trade associations to the DVLA dealing with parking operators within their memberships – one is the British Parking Association who have an independent appeals service called POPLA (parking on private land appeals and a Code of Practice, www.britishparking.co.uk . The other is the Independent Parking Committee who have their own Independent Appeals Service and also a Code of Practice www.theipc.info . These are two separate organisations.

Can we suggest that anyone who has specific issues relating to parking tickets and conflict resolution contact their local Citizen’s advice or a solicitor if they are unsure.



ere it is in full :-

It's important to note, the above will only apply to England and Wales. Wholly different laws and practice in northern Ireland and Scotland. I believe it is now illegal to clamp a vehicle (by a private parking company) as it amounts to theft. (Theft of ones enjoyment of their vehicle) although am happy to be corrected on that. (Scotland)

In northern Ireland, it is the responsibility of the driver (and not the keeper) when accepting the terms and conditions of the car park. Additionally, it is is then the responsibility of the enforcement company (and again, not the keeper) to prove who that driver was. There was a consultation with ministers (now lapsed for obvious reasons) and private firms as to how parking invoices are issued. During this time, the use of clamps was voluntarily abandoned, but are now being used again. (Superglue the locks in the meantime shhh)

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

[MSS]

Originally Posted by Number 6

...............

Can we suggest that anyone who has specific issues relating to parking tickets and conflict resolution contact their local Citizen’s advice or a solicitor if they are unsure.

ere it is in full :-

Here is an alternative view.

If you have deservedly received a parking ticket that is broadly equivalent to the fine you would have received had it been a council run facility, pay up.

Don't take matters such as these to Citizens Advice or other similar organisation simply in order to try to get out of paying. These days organizations such as CAB are under tremendous pressure trying to help genuinely needy people, some of whom are surviving on food parcels from charities and food-banks.

It's important to get matters into perspective.

Just my view, of course.

[mh007]

Originally Posted by mss

Here is an alternative view.

If you have deservedly received a parking ticket that is broadly equivalent to the fine you would have received had it been a council run facility, pay up.

Don't take matters such as these to Citizens Advice or other similar organisation simply in order to try to get out of paying. These days organizations such as CAB are under tremendous pressure trying to help genuinely needy people, some of whom are surviving on food parcels from charities and food-banks.

It's important to get matters into perspective.

Just my view, of course.

Your view is noted however, if you think that a person should pay the extortionate invoice some of these private parking companies incorrectly think they can charge, I'm sure you're one of the very few.

The plain fact is, car parks are pure cash cows & the motorist in most cases is a soft target.

However, if I have overstayed in a pay & display car park (that would be exceeding 10 minutes over the expiry time), I wouldn't have any issue paying the extra at the same hourly rate as originally charged.

[mileshawk56]

A happy result, actually a real person making a decision. Chris S.

[MSS]

Originally Posted by mh007

Your view is noted however, if you think that a person should pay the extortionate invoice some of these private parking companies incorrectly think they can charge, I'm sure you're one of the very few.

The plain fact is, car parks are pure cash cows & the motorist in most cases is a soft target.

However, if I have overstayed in a pay & display car park (that would be exceeding 10 minutes over the expiry time), I wouldn't have any issue paying the extra at the same hourly rate as originally charged.

So, if I understand this correctly, you would pay the penalty if it was a council run car park but in exactly the same scenario not pay the same amount of excess parking charge in a privately owned one?

Is this correct?

If so, what is it that makes one extortionate and the other proportionate?


Ultimately, if you don't support these private owners, why take the option of parking on their land?

[mh007]

Originally Posted by mss

So, if I understand this correctly, you would pay the penalty if it was a council run car park but in exactly the same scenario not pay the same amount of excess parking charge in a privately owned one?

Is this correct?

If so, what is it that makes one extortionate and the other proportionate?


Ultimately, if you don't support these private owners, why take the option of parking on their land?

First of all, apologies to the OP as it seems that this has strayed from the original thread but on the same subject.

Now, to answer your questions:

There is a big difference between a Council car park & a privately owned car park monitored by a parking private company working on behalf of the landlord/landowner.

The most important difference being that one is an enforceable fine (PCN - Penalty Charge Notice) & the other is an invoice inviting you to pay (PCN - Parking Charge Notice).

With regards to a council owned car park or parking area, you have to be very lucky to win an appeal if you have overstayed (plus 10 minutes of course). Would I be happy to pay the Penalty Charge Notice (and yes, the fines are extortionate)......of course not but as said, it would be a challenge to get off of paying it.

With regards to a privately owned car park monitored by a private parking company.
They cannot issue a 'fine' of any description with regards to parking on private land although they would have you think they can.
One of the most commonly used reasons during an appeal to POPLA is the amount requested by the private parking company for overstay is disproportionate to the damage caused to the landowners property.
Would I pay a Parking Charge Notice......no I would not but as I previously stated, if I overstayed more than 10 minutes over the expiry time & it was a 'pay & display' car park, I would willingly pay the displayed hourly rate for my overstay.

They are both extortionate & neither are proportionate in my view!

With regards to 'supporting' private land owners, I'm sure they make quite enough money from the retailers that rent space on their land & the whole idea surely is to provide parking on that land so that people can visit & spend money with the retailers. I would stick my neck out & say the majority of car parks (that are not Council owned) are monitored by a private parking company so if I want to visit somewhere like a B&Q for example, what would you suggest?!

Are you honestly telling me that you support the Parking Charge Notices & the amount they attempt to get drivers to pay?

[MSS]

Originally Posted by mh007

..............

Are you honestly telling me that you support the Parking Charge Notices & the amount they attempt to get drivers to pay?

I am aware of the facts you have articulated so will deal only with the question in your last paragraph.

I am absolutely supportive of PCN's where the amount requested is broadly in line with penalties for equivalent actions (or inactions) in a council run car park. "Broadly equivalent" is the term that I used in my previous post above.

In a previous similar thread, I linked to details of a court case that from memory went to the Supreme Court and the court's verdict was that a circa £80 PCN for a roughly 30 minute overstay after a 2-hour free period was reasonable and proportionate. So, it would appear that my views are similar to those of the Supreme Court.

In fact, here it is again.

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/sup...051987.article

My comments on taking such matters to Citizens Advice stand. There is a need to get a perspective on matters.


As the OP's matter is satisfactorily resolved, I do not feel guilty with the slight diversion here.

[bl52krz]

Originally Posted by mh007

First of all, apologies to the OP as it seems that this has strayed from the original thread but on the same subject.

Now, to answer your questions:

There is a big difference between a Council car park & a privately owned car park monitored by a parking private company working on behalf of the landlord/landowner.

The most important difference being that one is an enforceable fine (PCN - Penalty Charge Notice) & the other is an invoice inviting you to pay (PCN - Parking Charge Notice).

With regards to a council owned car park or parking area, you have to be very lucky to win an appeal if you have overstayed (plus 10 minutes of course). Would I be happy to pay the Penalty Charge Notice (and yes, the fines are extortionate)......of course not but as said, it would be a challenge to get off of paying it.

With regards to a privately owned car park monitored by a private parking company.
They cannot issue a 'fine' of any description with regards to parking on private land although they would have you think they can.
One of the most commonly used reasons during an appeal to POPLA is the amount requested by the private parking company for overstay is disproportionate to the damage caused to the landowners property.
Would I pay a Parking Charge Notice......no I would not but as I previously stated, if I overstayed more than 10 minutes over the expiry time & it was a 'pay & display' car park, I would willingly pay the displayed hourly rate for my overstay.

They are both extortionate & neither are proportionate in my view!

With regards to 'supporting' private land owners, I'm sure they make quite enough money from the retailers that rent space on their land & the whole idea surely is to provide parking on that land so that people can visit & spend money with the retailers. I would stick my neck out & say the majority of car parks (that are not Council owned) are monitored by a private parking company so if I want to visit somewhere like a B&Q for example, what would you suggest?!

Are you honestly telling me that you support the Parking Charge Notices & the amount they attempt to get drivers to pay?

Can I just point out an important point with regards to the ‘ ten minute’ rule:- the ten minutes can only be taken at the END of the parking time on the ticket issued. It can not be taken BEFORE you put money into a parking machine for a ticket to park. One item I picked up on reading 32 pages of rules and regulations with regards to parking in/on double yellow lines and/ or restricted area’s.

[saxo1980]

Send them an letter saying you paid it and send an photo copy of the prof you paid this had just happened to me few weeks ago I got an snotty letter back cos I said I will charge them for the stamp pen and my time and if the want to take me to court I charge 50 pounds per mile to court its an civil matter state your terms in letter two and sign it lol the nowt the can do at all load of NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-


you will get an snotty letter back at the end of the letter it say fine canceled that is parking eye its not enforceable its an civil matter

trying to fine me to go to Hospital the world has gone mad this would never happen in Scotland lol just England sad aint it