I was never told this when learning - Page 2

ratchet · 18th January 2015, 08:22

I also had a driving assesment (AA drive tech) when I started a new job.

I was given a slapped wrist for changing down (or engine braking as we used to call it). I was also told that I indicate too early, and should only indicate when I am about to change course.

That is utter codswallop as far as I am concerned. Indicating early (but not necessarily braking) gives other drivers advance notice of your intended change of direction - thus allowing them to change their speed, or change lanes etc. It boils my blood when someone sticks their indicator on at the very last second when they intend to turn right on a busy 2 lane road.............. resulting in me being stuck behind them.

In these days of drivers having far more distractions in their car to fiddle with, mobile phones, ipod's, sat navs etc, surely early indication of your intentions is a necessity.

FrazzleTC · 18th January 2015, 08:31

I'm a relatively young driver, at 23, but, I've driven a vast array of different cars over the years, and owned many which are a bit more challenging to own, and drive than a modern.
I don't rely entirely on my brakes like a lot of people I know, instead using the gears to slow down, when driving a manual car, particularly on difficult roads. I realise that some people aren't smart enough to grasp the concept of a car slowing down without brake lights, so in some situations, I'll use the brakes more, but, unless I'm in an auto, I find that I very rarely use the brakes.
A lot of good driving is about using the momentum, so your car remains as balanced as possible at all times, and I don't think that on-off driving really promotes that.
I do block change down the box, but never up it, because, in a V6, it's a bit pointless, as it just loses all sense of urgency, unless you're really revving it hard in 3rd before changing up. In a modern diesel, I suppose that works fine, but since I despise them, I've no desire to do much research.

macafee2 · 18th January 2015, 08:53

Block changing up, 3-5th. although I don't always do it there are times for example, pull out in to traffic, need to make speed so I don't cause them to have to avoid me, will stick in lower gears for longer to give me the acceleration but 3rd will give me the speed I need. From there i'll go to 5th.

Re indicating, I agree other drivers need time to react to the indicator. indicating as they change lane or direction is not good.

Coming down steep hills, low gear engine braking. not coming down with brakes on and them getting hotter and hotter.

Not so with the car but with the bike I can get from 70 down to a safe speed to take a roundabout without touching the brakes. look ahead, judge distance, roll off throttle.
I watch people bat up to roundabouts or on dual carriageways bat up to things and then brake. goodness knows why they leave it late to react, it makes it scary when you are a passenger.

macafee2

steve811 · 18th January 2015, 09:10

Like many driver son here I have been driving for a quarter century! I learnt to drive in a RAF Landrover (series 2) in Germany. The concept we were taught was to change up through the box smoothly according to speed and to change down in sequence so that if a brake failure occurs you had engine braking and could at least slow down. Going from 4th to 2nd in an old diesel landy was like hitting a brick wall!

As part of my job I attend "safe driver training" every 5 years with the IAM instructor. They stated last time (6 years ago) that my driving was adequate but that I should use the brakes not the engine/clutch to slow the car and also stated that "total brake failure is very rare". However they also stated at that time you should put your seat belt on before starting the engine, but this time (last year) reversed that as they had changed their policy! They also echo the guidance in the police training manual, that there is no need to indicate if it does not help other road users, a practice I dislike. If you indicate all the time it becomes custom and practice, and you don't forget!

chipsceola · 18th January 2015, 09:18

Block changing is mainly used when coming down the gears, pupils are taught as said brakes to slow, gears to go! In traffic, sequential changing 5,4,3,2,1 serves no useful purpose, look and plan ahead, come off gas early, brake gently if necessary and slow with a trailing throttle, if/as situation ahead alters select an appropriate gear and resume normal driving.

If traffic continues to slow or comes to a halt, with no load on engine/gear-train you need to change gear only to drive on, agreed clutch may need to be dipped slightly sooner or a gear (2nd?) selected before stopping but this will depend on actual flow and speed of traffic and road conditions (gradient) in each situation.

Modern gearbox engine combinations are quite capable of upward block changes 1/3/5 or 2/4/5 etc. this is quite different to older cars with 3 gears where clearly sequential changes remain the sensible action.

SD1too · 18th January 2015, 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by chipsceola

In traffic, sequential changing 5,4,3,2,1 serves no useful purpose ... if/as situation ahead alters select an appropriate gear...

The driver who is changing down sequentially will already be in the correct gear for the changed situation. The driver who has remained in 5th. and using the brakes has to work out which gear to select; is it 3rd, is it 2nd?
This not only takes time but can result in the wrong decision resulting in poor control of the vehicle. I really don't see any advantage in "block changing". There seems to be a obsession with reinventing the wheel at the moment in many spheres of life, and this is a good example of it.

Quote:

Modern gearbox engine combinations are quite capable of upward block changes 1/3/5 or 2/4/5 etc.

If that were true, why have five gears at all? Those ratios are selected precisely because the engine needs that gearing to keep it operating in a suitable torque band. In a few cases a large number of gears is provided to impress purchasers who think that "more" means better. The physics and technology of "gearbox/engine combinations" is the same as its always been.

Simon

MangoMan · 18th January 2015, 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yella Fella

I was watching the telly the other night about ways to save fuel. An advanced driver instructor said it was ok to change up gears "in block" eg from 3rd to 5th.

I was always told to increase speed smoothly through the gear box.

He also said To stop in what ever gear you are in and not come down the gears into the correct gear for the speed you are doing.

I always reduce my speed and slip into the correct gear for that speed.

I'm thinking it wouldn't be good for the engine or gearbox to go from 3rd to 5th etc.

I invariably go from 2nd to 4th, obviously car dependent as well as conditions. And if in 4/5th and I know I'm gonna come to a stop ahead at a robots I go into neutral and just coast to that stop. If things start moving before I stop I just choose the correct gear for the speed I'm doin' and pop it into that and proceed. I've done this for years, (and I mean years) so it's not a new thing.

Maybe that's why I get around 28-30 mpg around town..

Doghouse · 18th January 2015, 09:49

As an ex ROSPA gold certificate holder I had to get used to this method " gears are for going brakes are for slowing". It took a lot of practice but now I use this method its much more relaxed way to drive. Old cars couldn't take the engine load in high gears modern engines can added with better brakes this is the way to drive.

barney bear · 18th January 2015, 10:00

I have always and will always use my gears to slow me when i'm in a manual car or van. My brake pads on the van tend to last about 30% longer than other drivers who are doing comparable mileage (12-1500 miles a week). I also never block change up my gears as i don't see the point, if i have 6 gears i'm going to use 6 gears because that is the way the vehicle was designed.

roverbarmy · 18th January 2015, 10:10

What a can of worms! I was "officially" taught to drive in 1968 by my father, who had been driving lorries (not trucks!) for donkeys years. Most of the vehicles had skinny tyres, drum brakes and "crash" gearboxes and were in modern terms, very unreliable (built during or just post war era on worn out machinery to low tolerances). It was due to these factors that a system of driver teaching developed. The lack of engine power, and a poor set of ratios meant that you had to be in the correct gear for the road being covered (both up and down hills). The drum brakes could easily be overheated on long downhill sections so engine braking was used. We didn't have motorways with long, smooth inclines and descents. We had roads built for horse and carts, with tarmac (if you were lucky).

I feel lucky to have learned how to double de-clutch properly and time the gears synchronised to engine speed. I learned on vehicles with crash gears.

There are far more vehicles on the road now. They are far more reliable. They cover greater distances in less time.

I can see the sense in using the brakes to slow rather than engine braking (stop lamps show braking when using brakes but don't when engine braking) and less fuel is used (more economical) but it does give extra wear and tear on the discs and pads.

Basically, it's personal preference.

Mike

18th January 2015, 08:31	#12
FrazzleTC This is my second home Rover 75 Tourer Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Staffordshire Moorlands Posts: 7,924 Thanks: 533 Thanked 1,178 Times in 920 Posts	I'm a relatively young driver, at 23, but, I've driven a vast array of different cars over the years, and owned many which are a bit more challenging to own, and drive than a modern. I don't rely entirely on my brakes like a lot of people I know, instead using the gears to slow down, when driving a manual car, particularly on difficult roads. I realise that some people aren't smart enough to grasp the concept of a car slowing down without brake lights, so in some situations, I'll use the brakes more, but, unless I'm in an auto, I find that I very rarely use the brakes. A lot of good driving is about using the momentum, so your car remains as balanced as possible at all times, and I don't think that on-off driving really promotes that. I do block change down the box, but never up it, because, in a V6, it's a bit pointless, as it just loses all sense of urgency, unless you're really revving it hard in 3rd before changing up. In a modern diesel, I suppose that works fine, but since I despise them, I've no desire to do much research. __________________ 1967 Rover 2000 Automatic 1969 Rover 3500 Series One 1979 Scimitar GTE 2013 Mercedes SLK250 CDI

18th January 2015, 09:18	#15
chipsceola This is my second home Jaguar XF 3.0D Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Southampton Posts: 4,364 Thanks: 119 Thanked 509 Times in 426 Posts	Block changing is mainly used when coming down the gears, pupils are taught as said brakes to slow, gears to go! In traffic, sequential changing 5,4,3,2,1 serves no useful purpose, look and plan ahead, come off gas early, brake gently if necessary and slow with a trailing throttle, if/as situation ahead alters select an appropriate gear and resume normal driving. If traffic continues to slow or comes to a halt, with no load on engine/gear-train you need to change gear only to drive on, agreed clutch may need to be dipped slightly sooner or a gear (2nd?) selected before stopping but this will depend on actual flow and speed of traffic and road conditions (gradient) in each situation. Modern gearbox engine combinations are quite capable of upward block changes 1/3/5 or 2/4/5 etc. this is quite different to older cars with 3 gears where clearly sequential changes remain the sensible action. __________________ Chips

18th January 2015, 09:49	#18
Doghouse Loves to post Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Nottm/Derby Area Posts: 366 Thanks: 103 Thanked 23 Times in 17 Posts	As an ex ROSPA gold certificate holder I had to get used to this method " gears are for going brakes are for slowing". It took a lot of practice but now I use this method its much more relaxed way to drive. Old cars couldn't take the engine load in high gears modern engines can added with better brakes this is the way to drive. __________________ -------------------------------------------------------------- Previous Rovers K 214 SLi N 220 SLi 02 R75 2.0L V6 Connoiseur

18th January 2015, 10:00	#19
barney bear This is my second home rover 75 Connoiseur diesel called Rosey Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Preston Posts: 8,096 Thanks: 1,878 Thanked 2,001 Times in 1,424 Posts	I have always and will always use my gears to slow me when i'm in a manual car or van. My brake pads on the van tend to last about 30% longer than other drivers who are doing comparable mileage (12-1500 miles a week). I also never block change up my gears as i don't see the point, if i have 6 gears i'm going to use 6 gears because that is the way the vehicle was designed. __________________ It is NEVER your fault, do not believe her when she says it is Real name Tony http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5l6mhpix.jpg

18th January 2015, 10:10	#20
roverbarmy This is my second home Roverless + 1.7D Sportage Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: East Norfolk Posts: 7,050 Thanks: 729 Thanked 2,021 Times in 1,449 Posts	What a can of worms! I was "officially" taught to drive in 1968 by my father, who had been driving lorries (not trucks!) for donkeys years. Most of the vehicles had skinny tyres, drum brakes and "crash" gearboxes and were in modern terms, very unreliable (built during or just post war era on worn out machinery to low tolerances). It was due to these factors that a system of driver teaching developed. The lack of engine power, and a poor set of ratios meant that you had to be in the correct gear for the road being covered (both up and down hills). The drum brakes could easily be overheated on long downhill sections so engine braking was used. We didn't have motorways with long, smooth inclines and descents. We had roads built for horse and carts, with tarmac (if you were lucky). I feel lucky to have learned how to double de-clutch properly and time the gears synchronised to engine speed. I learned on vehicles with crash gears. There are far more vehicles on the road now. They are far more reliable. They cover greater distances in less time. I can see the sense in using the brakes to slow rather than engine braking (stop lamps show braking when using brakes but don't when engine braking) and less fuel is used (more economical) but it does give extra wear and tear on the discs and pads. Basically, it's personal preference. Mike __________________ Oil in my veins!

18th January 2015, 08:22	#11
ratchet Posted a thing or two ZT-T + CTDI Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Gone walkabout Posts: 1,185 Thanks: 179 Thanked 361 Times in 289 Posts	I also had a driving assesment (AA drive tech) when I started a new job. I was given a slapped wrist for changing down (or engine braking as we used to call it). I was also told that I indicate too early, and should only indicate when I am about to change course. That is utter codswallop as far as I am concerned. Indicating early (but not necessarily braking) gives other drivers advance notice of your intended change of direction - thus allowing them to change their speed, or change lanes etc. It boils my blood when someone sticks their indicator on at the very last second when they intend to turn right on a busy 2 lane road.............. resulting in me being stuck behind them. In these days of drivers having far more distractions in their car to fiddle with, mobile phones, ipod's, sat navs etc, surely early indication of your intentions is a necessity.

18th January 2015, 08:53	#13
macafee2 This is my second home Rover 75 Saloon & Tourer Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Lincoln Posts: 14,928 Thanks: 1,630 Thanked 3,032 Times in 2,181 Posts	Block changing up, 3-5th. although I don't always do it there are times for example, pull out in to traffic, need to make speed so I don't cause them to have to avoid me, will stick in lower gears for longer to give me the acceleration but 3rd will give me the speed I need. From there i'll go to 5th. Re indicating, I agree other drivers need time to react to the indicator. indicating as they change lane or direction is not good. Coming down steep hills, low gear engine braking. not coming down with brakes on and them getting hotter and hotter. Not so with the car but with the bike I can get from 70 down to a safe speed to take a roundabout without touching the brakes. look ahead, judge distance, roll off throttle. I watch people bat up to roundabouts or on dual carriageways bat up to things and then brake. goodness knows why they leave it late to react, it makes it scary when you are a passenger. macafee2

18th January 2015, 09:10	#14
steve811 Banned Rover 75 Tourer CDT Connoisseur SE Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Newport Posts: 1,906 Thanks: 107 Thanked 299 Times in 206 Posts	Like many driver son here I have been driving for a quarter century! I learnt to drive in a RAF Landrover (series 2) in Germany. The concept we were taught was to change up through the box smoothly according to speed and to change down in sequence so that if a brake failure occurs you had engine braking and could at least slow down. Going from 4th to 2nd in an old diesel landy was like hitting a brick wall! As part of my job I attend "safe driver training" every 5 years with the IAM instructor. They stated last time (6 years ago) that my driving was adequate but that I should use the brakes not the engine/clutch to slow the car and also stated that "total brake failure is very rare". However they also stated at that time you should put your seat belt on before starting the engine, but this time (last year) reversed that as they had changed their policy! They also echo the guidance in the police training manual, that there is no need to indicate if it does not help other road users, a practice I dislike. If you indicate all the time it becomes custom and practice, and you don't forget!