EU vote? - Page 9

wraymond · 27th May 2016, 23:05

It's such a terrible shame when politicians are so unable to engage with the electorate that people decide to abstain. Was there ever a more damning condemnation of a government or a bigger waste of the franchise that so many millions have fought and died for?

I don't just mean the 20th century, though that was bad enough, I'm talking about all the centuries before, all the invasions, all the defences of our way of life, all the challenges a country faces and all the work put in by those that thought it was worth working for. The young man at Jutland (mentioned earlier in another thread) who at 16 years did what he did because he thought it was his duty had not got the privileges we have but still he....well, you know what I mean. To see merely a generation or two being enough to throw all that away is a tragedy.

Don't abstain. The last general election suffered the same fate and now we are governed by the 25% of the electorate that bothered to go out and vote for what we have now got and that lies to us so easily. 25%? 25%!! That's not democracy, that's surrender. It's no good then complaining 'they have no idea about ordinary people, they decide what they want and to hell with us'.

If you can't decide because you don't have enough information, if you doubt the wild claims being made, then do your research. The answers are there if you look and are easy to find. These days of on-line discovery make it an easy thing to do. I have no computor skills whatsoever so if I can find it anyone can! If you are not sure where to look, ask somebody! They won't mind - they'll be impressed! And you will have your say based on effort rather than resignation!
That's me done for today, off to beddybyes to dream of wonderful things to come.

Polly · 27th May 2016, 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by E_T_V

This is what I posted on another car forum about the same question

I too would hope that you do go out and vote, I certainly wouldn't to win a vote just because the other side didn't bother to vote. It's only when everyone goes out and registers their vote that the result has any validity.
I just hope your decision is not based on the rubbishy we are being fed, the irony is that a lot of it is coming from the government, and not the official campaign teams.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

neilbaker86 · 28th May 2016, 00:05

I have to say that over the last few weeks I've never felt so annoyed with any government as I do now.

David Cameron knew all along what he was doing, he reluctantly gave us an EU referendum because UKIP were stealing Conservative votes (remember nearly 4 million people voted UKIP at the last general election), but knew he would simply rig the whole thing from start to finish, he has pulled every string going, from getting Barack Obama and various 'think tanks' to tell us how bad it will be if we leave (most of whom incidentally are funded by the EU). Tell us that WW3 will start, that holidays will be more expensive, that pensioners will be poor, the list truly does go on, there is another 'shock horror' headline every single day, they've obviously spent time coming up with a list which they are simply running down.

Then spending £9million pounds of tax payers money on a TOTALLY one sided leaflet, setting up a website (https://www.eureferendum.gov.uk/) with TOTALLY one sided information on it, which now, because of 'purdah' rules has a notice at the top saying that 'no further material will be published', but IT'S ALL STILL ON THERE! They don't need to publish anything else! The website should be taken down, full stop. I've also seen countless adverts on YouTube and other social media sites funded by my own government telling me how bad it will be if we leave and that therefore I must vote to stay in.

I guarantee you, that IF we vote to leave the EU, it simply will not happen. Dave will go straight over there, do some further 'negoations' (which will have already taken place behind closed doors) and then come back asking us again, a bit like Ireland and the Lisbon treaty. This phoney 'renegotiation' will probably be relating to the freedom of movement. One thing I think we pretty much all feel is that David Cameron is a down right liar, so why is he hell bent on us remaining? I strongly suspect it's simply because the political classes all stick together so that he can have a nice little number over in Brussels when his political career ends in this country. The old boys club firmly in action.

Dragrad · 28th May 2016, 00:38

So, according to the recent clarification of the stats., the £350 million we give per week (£50 million per day!) that is paid from US, the taxpayers.......

....to the EU is a 'false' figure as we get £240 million back from that £350 million per week

That still leaves, £110 million pounds that we "lose"

The last time, IIRC, that a hospital was built cost £55 million...... (albeit a few years ago

).... But that, in today's costs, probably, would be 1-2 new hospitals PER WEEK!! (Not, that we need 2 hospitals per week

, but there are other infrastructures that need to be addressed, and rectified, for example our roads and the regeneration of our manufacturing industries (depleted after the 2003 EU Way Forward document that was 'D Noticed' for publication in the UK and some other EU countries ( a copy of which I no longer have... mine was lost when my PC crashed in 2005

It was published in France, translated to German, and then to English) and has now vanished from the internet.....

))). Do you trust the EU - I do not, and never have done ... More cover-ups than duvets/blankets on a cold night......

So what can £110 million per week pay for ?

For those that want to vote.... (Welsh Liberal IN logo ) (Who got decimated in the last election )

...

Let's put our own house in order before we pay for other countries to try to put theirs in order......

Sorry for the "rant".......

Guess which way I am voting

My allegiance to Great Britain can be seen....

I post this as an ordinary Club Member and NOT as a Moderator

topman · 28th May 2016, 06:05

[B]
'His Party's vested interests Paymasters call the tune and he plays it.NAUGHTY WORD-'
[B/]

Who do you believe that the paymasters are?

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilbaker86

but knew he would simply rig the whole thing from start to finish, he has pulled every string going, from getting Barack Obama and various 'think tanks' to tell us how bad it will be if we leave (most of whom incidentally are funded by the EU). Tell us that WW3 will start, that holidays will be more expensive, that pensioners will be poor, the list truly does go on, there is another 'shock horror' headline every single day, they've obviously spent time coming up with a list which they are simply running down.

Then spending £9million pounds of tax payers money on a TOTALLY one sided leaflet, setting up a website (https://www.eureferendum.gov.uk/) with TOTALLY one sided information on it,

I don't know about rig, but yes world leaders have an opinion on the referendum. Most seem to favour us staying in apart from donald trump and Vladimir putin ( that I've read anyway) and I'm not sure they are overly persuasive.
The other stuff you mentioned is coming out by the boatload by both sides. It appears to be near armegedon if we vote in/out depending on what you read. I think both sides should be more positive.

The leaflets are to be expected they reflect the thoughts of the government. I know they bother many people, but I'm not one of them. The government does have an opinion and no surprise it publishes it.

HarryM1BYT · 28th May 2016, 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by wraymond;2298189
Don't abstain. The last general election suffered the same fate and now we are governed by the 25% of the electorate that bothered to go out and vote for what we have now got and that lies to us so easily. 25%? 25%!! That's not democracy, that's surrender. It's no good then complaining 'they have no idea about ordinary people, they decide what [I

they[/I] want and to hell with us'.

If you can't decide because you don't have enough information, if you doubt the wild claims being made, then do your research. The answers are there if you look and are easy to find. These days of on-line discovery make it an easy thing to do. I have no computor skills whatsoever so if I can find it anyone can! If you are not sure where to look, ask somebody! They won't mind - they'll be impressed! And you will have your say based on effort rather than resignation!
That's me done for today, off to beddybyes to dream of wonderful things to come.

Wraymond..

I didn't bother to vote, simply because there was no one I felt worthy of my vote. I don't normally vote for parties, but the first time I bothered to vote I voted UKIP. I felt they had something to offer and they deserved my support.

We have an almost useless MP, but a local councillor worthy of my vote. I dislike speeches, I am impressed by action rather than words and promises. My partner has never voted, ever, but gives no reason for that not wishing to vote.

stevenicks · 28th May 2016, 07:31

I suppose the only reason the Tories got into government was because they were supposedly in a lot of voters eyes the best of a very, very bad bunch.

Lancpudn · 28th May 2016, 08:39

I posted my postal vote this morning with a cross in the "OUT" box.

neilbaker86 · 28th May 2016, 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by topman

I don't know about rig, but yes world leaders have an opinion on the referendum. Most seem to favour us staying in apart from donald trump and Vladimir putin ( that I've read anyway) and I'm not sure they are overly persuasive.
The other stuff you mentioned is coming out by the boatload by both sides. It appears to be near armegedon if we vote in/out depending on what you read. I think both sides should be more positive.

The leaflets are to be expected they reflect the thoughts of the government. I know they bother many people, but I'm not one of them. The government does have an opinion and no surprise it publishes it.

It is so obvious to me that Barack Obama has been asked to say what he did. Although it would be in America's interest for us to remain so we can be there puppet within the EU anyway.

I strongly feel that the government shouldn't take a position! And certainly not spend tax payers money and use the power of the civil service on it! This is the sort of thing Putin and Kim Jong Un would do. Not what I expect from a western democracy. David Cameron could've simply given us the referendum, campainged himself for the IN campaign whilst sticking to their spending limit. (Not that spending limits seem to bother him!) That would've made a fair referendum. Anyone who cannot agree with that level playing field, which would be nothing but fair, is clearly all for IN and is quite prepared to allow our government to rig the outcome at any cost.

Gman2 · 28th May 2016, 10:08

I think the constant bombardment of stats and counter stats is all academic and at the end of the day the outcome either way is crystal ball gazing but with an OUT even more so. Ultimately it's down to emotion - you either want to part of Europe and with it take the negatives and positives or cast adrift and see what appears over the horizon For me? I'm voting IN. Why...?

I accept that Europe isn't perfect but no-one is selling a utopian political and economic dream and neither can the OUT campaign. I think an OUT vote could trigger a chain of events be it another referendum in Scotland or further countries leaving the EU that could bring instability to the region that we've generally enjoyed since the end of the war. Yesterday the BBC pooled all the economic think from both sides and the general consensus is that the UK will experience economic shock for at least 2 years and the EU saving will be used to shore up the economy and steady the ship. I doubt anyone would argue that the UK economy is currently in good health that can withstand such a shock. An OUT vote will then dominate UK politics with hammering out new trade deals with other partners and will take our eye off the ball with other national and global issues that require our attention. And who's going to lead these negotiations - messers Johnson and Farage? I'm also voting for my kids future - I don't want to find them disadvantaged down the line if this has gone Pete Tong. Both want to go into science as a career - UK science and research is a net beneficiary of EU funding so what happens if the tap's turned off? If, say, in 15 years time we recognise that BREXIT hasn't worked and we want back in then I suspect the humble pie in political and economic terms that we'd have to swallow would be too much for us to stomach so then what....

It may not be perfect but it's predictable and by staying in the UK and other countries feeling similar sentiment can push for change albeit slowly. There you go I've said my bit..

27th May 2016, 23:05	#81
wraymond This is my second home 75 Auto 2.5 SE Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Westcliff on Sea Posts: 5,208 Thanks: 423 Thanked 1,680 Times in 1,014 Posts	It's such a terrible shame when politicians are so unable to engage with the electorate that people decide to abstain. Was there ever a more damning condemnation of a government or a bigger waste of the franchise that so many millions have fought and died for? I don't just mean the 20th century, though that was bad enough, I'm talking about all the centuries before, all the invasions, all the defences of our way of life, all the challenges a country faces and all the work put in by those that thought it was worth working for. The young man at Jutland (mentioned earlier in another thread) who at 16 years did what he did because he thought it was his duty had not got the privileges we have but still he....well, you know what I mean. To see merely a generation or two being enough to throw all that away is a tragedy. Don't abstain. The last general election suffered the same fate and now we are governed by the 25% of the electorate that bothered to go out and vote for what we have now got and that lies to us so easily. 25%? 25%!! That's not democracy, that's surrender. It's no good then complaining 'they have no idea about ordinary people, they decide what they want and to hell with us'. If you can't decide because you don't have enough information, if you doubt the wild claims being made, then do your research. The answers are there if you look and are easy to find. These days of on-line discovery make it an easy thing to do. I have no computor skills whatsoever so if I can find it anyone can! If you are not sure where to look, ask somebody! They won't mind - they'll be impressed! And you will have your say based on effort rather than resignation! That's me done for today, off to beddybyes to dream of wonderful things to come. __________________ member no. 235

28th May 2016, 00:38	#84
Dragrad This is my second home *None DROWNED** Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Cardigan Posts: 33,339 Thanks: 1,257 Thanked 1,664 Times in 1,081 Posts	So, according to the recent clarification of the stats., the £350 million we give per week (£50 million per day!) that is paid from US, the taxpayers....... ....to the EU is a 'false' figure as we get £240 million back from that £350 million per week That still leaves, £110 million pounds that we "lose" The last time, IIRC, that a hospital was built cost £55 million...... (albeit a few years ago).... But that, in today's costs, probably, would be 1-2 new hospitals PER WEEK!! (Not, that we need 2 hospitals per week, but there are other infrastructures that need to be addressed, and rectified, for example our roads and the regeneration of our manufacturing industries (depleted after the 2003 EU Way Forward document that was 'D Noticed' for publication in the UK and some other EU countries ( a copy of which I no longer have... mine was lost when my PC crashed in 2005 It was published in France, translated to German, and then to English) and has now vanished from the internet..... ))). Do you trust the EU - I do not, and never have done ... More cover-ups than duvets/blankets on a cold night...... So what can £110 million per week pay for ? For those that want to vote.... (Welsh Liberal IN logo ) (Who got decimated in the last election ) ... Let's put our own house in order before we pay for other countries to try to put theirs in order...... Sorry for the "rant"....... Guess which way I am voting My allegiance to Great Britain can be seen.... *I post this as an ordinary Club Member and NOT as a Moderator* __________________ Andrew Ich Dien Problem solving is... lateral thinking SEARCH FIRST ...ASK LATER... Last edited by Dragrad; 28th May 2016 at 23:47.. Reason: typo

28th May 2016, 07:31	#87
stevenicks This is my second home MG ZT 180 Auto / Rover 75 2.0 Diesel Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brecon. Posts: 7,465 Thanks: 3,297 Thanked 1,666 Times in 1,264 Posts	I suppose the only reason the Tories got into government was because they were supposedly in a lot of voters eyes the best of a very, very bad bunch. __________________ "You're Not Laughing Now Are You?" Steve

28th May 2016, 08:39	#88
Lancpudn This is my second home MG ZS EV Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Lancashire Posts: 15,699 Thanks: 4,591 Thanked 3,427 Times in 2,565 Posts	I posted my postal vote this morning with a cross in the "OUT" box. __________________ Blessed are the tea makers. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3b...auto-2000_auto

28th May 2016, 00:05	#83
neilbaker86 Gets stuck in MG ZT Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Oxford Posts: 847 Thanks: 124 Thanked 312 Times in 147 Posts	I have to say that over the last few weeks I've never felt so annoyed with any government as I do now. David Cameron knew all along what he was doing, he reluctantly gave us an EU referendum because UKIP were stealing Conservative votes (remember nearly 4 million people voted UKIP at the last general election), but knew he would simply rig the whole thing from start to finish, he has pulled every string going, from getting Barack Obama and various 'think tanks' to tell us how bad it will be if we leave (most of whom incidentally are funded by the EU). Tell us that WW3 will start, that holidays will be more expensive, that pensioners will be poor, the list truly does go on, there is another 'shock horror' headline every single day, they've obviously spent time coming up with a list which they are simply running down. Then spending £9million pounds of tax payers money on a TOTALLY one sided leaflet, setting up a website (https://www.eureferendum.gov.uk/) with TOTALLY one sided information on it, which now, because of 'purdah' rules has a notice at the top saying that 'no further material will be published', but IT'S ALL STILL ON THERE! They don't need to publish anything else! The website should be taken down, full stop. I've also seen countless adverts on YouTube and other social media sites funded by my own government telling me how bad it will be if we leave and that therefore I must vote to stay in. I guarantee you, that IF we vote to leave the EU, it simply will not happen. Dave will go straight over there, do some further 'negoations' (which will have already taken place behind closed doors) and then come back asking us again, a bit like Ireland and the Lisbon treaty. This phoney 'renegotiation' will probably be relating to the freedom of movement. One thing I think we pretty much all feel is that David Cameron is a down right liar, so why is he hell bent on us remaining? I strongly suspect it's simply because the political classes all stick together so that he can have a nice little number over in Brussels when his political career ends in this country. The old boys club firmly in action.

28th May 2016, 10:08	#90
Gman2 Posted a thing or two ZTT+ 1.8T, mgf 1.8 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Warrington Posts: 1,550 Thanks: 28 Thanked 65 Times in 42 Posts	I think the constant bombardment of stats and counter stats is all academic and at the end of the day the outcome either way is crystal ball gazing but with an OUT even more so. Ultimately it's down to emotion - you either want to part of Europe and with it take the negatives and positives or cast adrift and see what appears over the horizon For me? I'm voting IN. Why...? I accept that Europe isn't perfect but no-one is selling a utopian political and economic dream and neither can the OUT campaign. I think an OUT vote could trigger a chain of events be it another referendum in Scotland or further countries leaving the EU that could bring instability to the region that we've generally enjoyed since the end of the war. Yesterday the BBC pooled all the economic think from both sides and the general consensus is that the UK will experience economic shock for at least 2 years and the EU saving will be used to shore up the economy and steady the ship. I doubt anyone would argue that the UK economy is currently in good health that can withstand such a shock. An OUT vote will then dominate UK politics with hammering out new trade deals with other partners and will take our eye off the ball with other national and global issues that require our attention. And who's going to lead these negotiations - messers Johnson and Farage? I'm also voting for my kids future - I don't want to find them disadvantaged down the line if this has gone Pete Tong. Both want to go into science as a career - UK science and research is a net beneficiary of EU funding so what happens if the tap's turned off? If, say, in 15 years time we recognise that BREXIT hasn't worked and we want back in then I suspect the humble pie in political and economic terms that we'd have to swallow would be too much for us to stomach so then what.... It may not be perfect but it's predictable and by staying in the UK and other countries feeling similar sentiment can push for change albeit slowly. There you go I've said my bit..