EU vote?

[HarryM1BYT]

Originally Posted by Gate Keeper

100 Days post Brexit (speculative) if the 'exits' win

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/b...irst-100-days/

So what that says is that the EU is so heavily reliant on the UK being in, that were we to pull out - the entire EU might well fall apart. In other news, the EU IS already falling apart and if we remain likely it will drag us down along with it.

[wraymond]

It's like shooting fish in a barrel.
Latest gems from the Twilight Zone:

Martin McGuiness, former member of the IRA army council, has pledged he will campaign for the Remain camp. I refrain from putting an exclamation mark after that, it’s just not funny.

Donald Tusk, European Council President, says Brexit will trigger the end of Western Political Civilisation! I can’t avoid an exclamation mark there.

Gordon Brown, another ex-PM, Chancellor and infamous for, among much else, calling a woman a ‘Bigot’ while his mic was still on, is brought in to take over from Cameron who seems to be considered of late a disincentive to vote Remain!! That’s got to be worth two.

Please excuse my quoting a paragraph from Quentin Letts because it’s just a corker:
“And so the Remainers turn to that Great Horse Whisperer of Middle England, that lithe charmer of the English shires… First Nicola Sturgeon, then Eddie Izzard, now grumpy Gordon. Jings, it’s a winning streak”.
This is too easy.

[Polly]

Originally Posted by bobthebuilder

And right on cue, the Leave campaign announces it will honour all EU grants to the UK until 2020



But they don't make policy statements.....



I thought they had already promised all the money we give to the EU to the NHS? In fact, they promised more than we give since they used the made up figure of £350 million a week.



These numbers clearly don't add up, please don't fall for it.

Indeed, right on cue. Does that mean you are now happy because the leave campaign has made a policy statement?
No you are not, are you, and I don't blame you, because at the end of the day, who are you going to hold responsible if the future produces something completely different.
If you really must have a Brexit policy statement, I'm sure I could probably cobble together something. Of course we both know it would be worthless, because we just don't know what the Tory government will do, so let's be honest, my policy statement would be every bit as authoritative as any by either of the referendum groups.
I think you should cease asking for policy statements, and just try to work out in your own mind, what would be the benefits of a country free to trade under conditions which suit them as opposed to Brussels. Of course there will have to be compromises, but we would no longer have to worry about how these decisions will affect the German motor industry.
Let me give just a small example; we discussed Mr Dyson earlier in this thread, but he was poo pod on the basis that it's just sour grapes on his part because he didn't get his own way. Let's just consider that. He claims his vacuum cleaners don't clog, but then so does every other manufacturer, so he suggests that official test does represent real life conditions, because it is done with a brand new filter and under laboratory conditions so we should have a tougher test. However the other manufacturers don't like this, because their machines might not pass, so the idea is rejected. Now that decision might well benefit the German economy, but does nothing to help the UK manufacturer, and so in turn the UK economy suffers, just as it did when the UK fishing industry was decimated.
Here again, if you were a wealthy "fisherman" owning several fishing boats, then the EU has been a wonderful invention. First of all you sell you fishing quotas, for perhaps sums that would make your eyes water, indeed far in excess of the value of the fishing boat. And then you destroy the board, and recover the cost from EU decommission grant. Great! You might say, that will save the fish stocks and the OWNER has been compensated. But that just the point, as a wealthy fishing boat owner, he had probably never been to sea in his life, but the men who operated the boats got nothing, except perhaps, if they were lucky, a thanks you


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[Darcydog]

Originally Posted by wraymond

Please excuse my quoting a paragraph from Quentin Letts because it’s just a corker:
“And so the Remainers turn to that Great Horse Whisperer of Middle England, that lithe charmer of the English shires… First Nicola Sturgeon, then Eddie Izzard, now grumpy Gordon. Jings, it’s a winning streak”.

This is too easy.

Priceless - absolutely priceless........

[SideValve]

I like it when the leavers come up with a policy. Partly because they are just wishful thinking and partly because the numbers never add up.
The basic premise is that we would have more control.
The problems are that nobody knows what we would do with it, how we would redistribute the money, whether the money would still be there if trade & taxation dipped. How we would fill roles currently fill by migrants, whether we would actually reduce immigration, what would happen to uk emigrants to the EU, how trade agreements would work out. Which bits of "red tape" (employment rights, fish stock protection, environmental controls, human rights) we would scrap.
And we'd loose our democratic voice at the EU so have no control there at all and we have no idea what they would do or how it would impact us.

I count myself as a European but I am becoming increasing tempered to vote out just for the prospect of the chancers Farage, Gove and Johnson forming a government. Car crash politics.

[Darcydog]

Originally Posted by SideValve

I like it when the leavers come up with a policy. Partly because they are just wishful thinking and partly because the numbers never add up.
The basic premise is that we would have more control.
The problems are that nobody knows what we would do with it, how we would redistribute the money, whether the money would still be there if trade & taxation dipped. How we would fill roles currently fill by migrants, whether we would actually reduce immigration, what would happen to uk emigrants to the EU, how trade agreements would work out. Which bits of "red tape" (employment rights, fish stock protection, environmental controls, human rights) we would scrap.
And we'd loose our democratic voice at the EU so have no control there at all and we have no idea what they would do or how it would impact us.

I count myself as a European but I am becoming increasing tempered to vote out just for the prospect of the chancers Farage, Gove and Johnson forming a government. Car crash politics.

Re the EU Grants to Farmers - the Leave Campaign has not really come up with a "Policy" - and I repeat the point made so well by others that - as neither side is a Political Party the suggestions as to what we as a country can do are just that - suggestions based upon a set of assumptions.

The Remain Camp suggests that it would be best to stay IN so we can Reform the EU from within. But as yet I have seen no concrete evidence as to how they plan to do this.

The Brexit Camp tells us that we will be better off without the restrictive oversight of the EU. And to be fair - details as to exactly how we would be better off is a bit sparse.

So it is about - IMO - control.

Out of the EU it would seem that a Common Customs Arrangement is a possibility so a Tariff Free Trade zone is a distinct possibility. We are a net contributor to the EU so on the face of it we would retain more money than we do now. Currently we get back less than we give and what we do get back comes with restrictions and a "Given by the EU" badge.

(Which is nice)

If we remain IN the EU we will continue to contribute more than we get back and if we want change and Reform then we have to convince 27 other member states to support us. And some countries do support us - but the net receivers of EU grants are hardly likely to want Reform that reduces their EU gravy train are they?

So I hardly think losing our democratic voice in the EU is something we should be concerned about. After all Cameron wen to the EU with a set of reasonable "Reforms" that would have answered a lot of the concerns we EU sceptics had.

But the EU humiliated Cameron and as much as he tries to put a positive spin on what he "achieved" - we can all see that the EU does not want a change at all.

The EU has morphed into something that does not exist for the benefit of its member states and its citizens - it exists to push forward ever more political and fiscal union and if that means the likes of Greece have to be virtually destroyed and the career and work prospects for some States under 25's compromised for years - then in the minds of the political EU elite, this is an acceptable price for Greece and the Young of some member states to pay.

So we would lose our 1:27 "democratic voice" and so have "no control there at all and we have no idea what they would do or how it would impact us".

IMO - we have little or no voice currently in the EU and the "control" is all in the wrong direction. The EU exerts control over what we do - the evidence seems clear to me that we have very little "control" over what the EU does.

[wraymond]

This thing about control gets me. UK has none. Germany and France seem to run the shop to the exclusion of everyone else. They certainly ignore EU regulations with impunity.

The times UK has either objected to or proposed a measure and failed to see it succeed is remarkable and beyond doubt. That’s because of the 'weighting' produced by so many countries that have very different ideas to UK about where they want to see change. That can only get worse with poorer countries lined up for membership, swelling the ranks and increasing the weighting even more. I would suggest that is out of control – certainly ours.

So having ‘control’ or ‘influence’ within EU is surely a self-evident myth. We therefore can see a future of growing resistance to our ideas with a lessening chance of seeing them implemented. That’s pretty poor odds and timely reminder of the real aim and direction the EU is taking.

The only way to realistically avoid such a bleak future is regain the control we, I mean of course the politicians, gave away 40 years ago on the back of a downright lie.

Voting for independence is not leaving anything, it’s joining the rest of the free world to please ourselves with who we please, with the same trading conditions the rest of the world seem to get by on very well thank you. That’s Control. The masters of our own destiny.

[Leyland Worldmaster]

What makes me laugh is the disingenuous interest displayed by politicians- on both sides- in worker's rights...

The fact is they're so far removed from the communities they serve, it is difficult to believe they really understand the challenges faced by us.

This is something that really needs to be addressed if they really want a full turnout of voters.

[HarryM1BYT]

The simple answer, is that it is easier/ more attractive to move here to a ready made society with lots of free benefits, even if you don't work at all. For them, the UK's streets really are paved with gold, from their perspective - what's not to like?

[bobthebuilder]

Originally Posted by SideValve

I count myself as a European but I am becoming increasing tempered to vote out just for the prospect of the chancers Farage, Gove and Johnson forming a government. Car crash politics.

Priceless! A tiny part of me wants Out to win as well so we can see which of the Leave dream-team gets to negotiate the exit terms with the EU and then after about five years come back to the Houses of Parliament with their tail between their legs to try and justify the appalling deal they've negotiated.