F1 Halo or closed c0ckpit!

[neilb740]

Originally Posted by AndyN01

Motorsport is dangerous.

The people involved know that.

Andy

Every time I do a track day or driving experience you have to sign a form stating exactly that, Motorsports is dangerous, you may be injured or killed and you accept responsibility for this.

Statistically however there are many sports that are far more dangerous. How many rugby players break their necks each year, how many horse riders are killed or injured? I've never once had to sign a disclaimer to go pony trekking for example.

I know that saying one sport is dangerous is no excuse for another to do the same but IMO formula 1 has an excellent safety record already, the only fatality in recent years being a freak incident involving a marshaling error and very, very bad luck (Jules Bianchi)

I'm just not sure what problem/hazard Halo is meant to cure? I cant remember the last injury/fatality involving a rollover or an airborne car crashing into the cockpit of another.
I'm trying to think of every such incident, I'm back to the 90's (Brundle in Melbourne) and all of them walked away.

[clf]

Originally Posted by neilb740

Every time I do a track day or driving experience you have to sign a form stating exactly that, Motorsports is dangerous, you may be injured or killed and you accept responsibility for this.

Statistically however there are many sports that are far more dangerous. How many rugby players break their necks each year, how many horse riders are killed or injured? I've never once had to sign a disclaimer to go pony trekking for example.

I know that saying one sport is dangerous is no excuse for another to do the same but IMO formula 1 has an excellent safety record already, the only fatality in recent years being a freak incident involving a marshaling error and very, very bad luck (Jules Bianchi)

I'm just not sure what problem/hazard Halo is meant to cure? I cant remember the last injury/fatality involving a rollover or an airborne car crashing into the cockpit of another.
I'm trying to think of every such incident, I'm back to the 90's (Brundle in Melbourne) and all of them walked away.

John surtees son, Dan wheldon, amd Anthony .... (I am so bad with names) but they were lower formula, or Indy car. A screen may have helped Massa a few years ago now from his injury, and a good chance the halo would have worked for him too.

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

[neilb740]

Originally Posted by clf

John surtees son, Dan wheldon, amd Anthony .... (I am so bad with names) but they were lower formula, or Indy car. A screen may have helped Massa a few years ago now from his injury, and a good chance the halo would have worked for him too.

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

Dan Wheldon, possibly, although his head hit a fence post on an oval track. this set of circumstances could never happen on an F1 circuit with the possible exception of Monaco which is a dull as hell procession which needs canceling anyway.

Henry Surtees was hit by an unthered wheel, so possibly again, F1 wheels are tethered but I know that's not perfect and they still come off occasionally.

The object that struck Massa was small (a damper off Barichello's car if I remember correctly) less than half the size of a coke can. A screen would almost certainly have saved him but He would have to be very lucky to be protected by the central pillar on halo. it hit his helmet on the left hand side, if it had been deflected a few inches lower by the HALO top bar and gone through his visor he would almost certainly be dead.
Watch the vid below, it would have missed HALO by a mile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6GGwYJ6Me8


Just close the cockpit and be done with it IMO, rather than faffing about with half way compromises.

[clf]

Originally Posted by neilb740

Dan Wheldon, possibly, although his head hit a fence post on an oval track. this set of circumstances could never happen on an F1 circuit with the possible exception of Monaco which is a dull as hell procession which needs canceling anyway.

Henry Surtees was hit by an unthered wheel, so possibly again, F1 wheels are tethered but I know that's not perfect and they still come off occasionally.

The object that struck Massa was small (a damper off Barichello's car if I remember correctly) less than half the size of a coke can. A screen would almost certainly have saved him but He would have to be very lucky to be protected by the central pillar on halo. it hit his helmet on the left hand side, if it had been deflected a few inches lower by the HALO top bar and gone through his visor he would almost certainly be dead.
Watch the vid below, it would have missed HALO by a mile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6GGwYJ6Me8


Just close the cockpit and be done with it IMO, rather than faffing about with half way compromises.

I take your points and agree, and hoped I had intimated as much. The halo discussion I believe came about because of these incidents. 'What if that happened to us' etc

Looking back to the 80s, the mechanics standing around whist cars whizzed past. Being kept in their garages was relatively recent after a couple of near misses. I recall more incidents in these safety conscious times than in if days when the mechanics roamed the sit lanes. There was more good sense in those times, along with less accountability. Which is where I believe a lot of safety measures come from, rather than a desire to protect. (That's a whole different argument though)

I think the canopy will be if way to go, as it will allow for better aerodynamics and development, which hopefully will start to filter to road cars again. Which is what formula 1 is supposed to be for, for manufacturer teams


Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

[AndyN01]

Originally Posted by clf

I take your points and agree, and hoped I had intimated as much. The halo discussion I believe came about because of these incidents. 'What if that happened to us' etc

Looking back to the 80s, the mechanics standing around whist cars whizzed past. Being kept in their garages was relatively recent after a couple of near misses. I recall more incidents in these safety conscious times than in if days when the mechanics roamed the sit lanes. There was more good sense in those times, along with less accountability. Which is where I believe a lot of safety measures come from, rather than a desire to protect. (That's a whole different argument though)

I think the canopy will be if way to go, as it will allow for better aerodynamics and development, which hopefully will start to filter to road cars again. Which is what formula 1 is supposed to be for, for manufacturer teams


Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

My marshalling era.

Having worked the pit lane in the days long before pit lane speed limits guess what?

You kept your wits about you and were very conscious of anything moving in the pit lane.

Everyone looked out for everyone else.

In those days the marshal was responsible for releasing the car from the pit into the pit lane. You stood facing the traffic on the front "passenger" wing of the car with the driver waiting for your signal to go.

Silverstone 6 hours - the prelude to Le Mans.

Works Porsche's and Lancia's were in the first garages.

I was about 2/3 of the way down the pit lane.

Cars coming past us were doing well over a ton.

The only thing separating you from the car coming down the pit lane at 100+mph was a white line.

Motor racing is dangerous!

I don't recall any significant incident or injury.

Maybe the whole "everything is someone else's fault" culture has created this "safety" (AKA not being sued) environment?

All a bit sad really.

Andy.

[clf]

Originally Posted by AndyN01

The only thing separating you from the car coming down the pit lane at 100+mph was a white line.

........... and your own good sense!

[AndyN01]

Thank you.

It's called personal responsibility and common sense - seems to be sadly lacking these days.

Drivers understood that you weren't holding them for the fun of it so, even in the aaarrrrggghhhh I'm losing time moment, they behaved.

Managers did likewise - or got exceptionally short shrift from the Clerk of the Course.

And we did our level best to turn them around the split second it was safe to do so. Being caught up in a fireball as fully fuelled 100mph+ car hits fully fuelled pulling out car wasn't too high on our list of things to do that day.

And because everyone understood and accepted the rules and risks it all worked very nicely.

Ah, happy memories.

Andy.

[suzublu]

Originally Posted by AndyN01

Thank you.

It's called personal responsibility and common sense - seems to be sadly lacking these days.

Drivers understood that you weren't holding them for the fun of it so, even in the aaarrrrggghhhh I'm losing time moment, they behaved.

Managers did likewise - or got exceptionally short shrift from the Clerk of the Course.

And we did our level best to turn them around the split second it was safe to do so. Being caught up in a fireball as fully fuelled 100mph+ car hits fully fuelled pulling out car wasn't too high on our list of things to do that day.

And because everyone understood and accepted the rules and risks it all worked very nicely.

Ah, happy memories.

Andy.

Ah yes, the good old days when "Elf & Safety" took a back seat & common sense & personal responsibility were king

[neilb740]

Originally Posted by clf

I take your points and agree, and hoped I had intimated as much. The halo discussion I believe came about because of these incidents. 'What if that happened to us' etc

Looking back to the 80s, the mechanics standing around whist cars whizzed past. Being kept in their garages was relatively recent after a couple of near misses. I recall more incidents in these safety conscious times than in if days when the mechanics roamed the sit lanes. There was more good sense in those times, along with less accountability. Which is where I believe a lot of safety measures come from, rather than a desire to protect. (That's a whole different argument though)

I think the canopy will be if way to go, as it will allow for better aerodynamics and development, which hopefully will start to filter to road cars again. Which is what formula 1 is supposed to be for, for manufacturer teams


Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

I would also prefer the closed canopy. My only concern would be getting a driver out of an overturned car. Its a bit different to a closed touring car or LMP.
F1 drivers are packed in pretty tight!

[clf]

Originally Posted by neilb740

I would also prefer the closed canopy. My only concern would be getting a driver out of an overturned car. Its a bit different to a closed touring car or LMP. F1 drivers are packed in pretty tight!

this is why I would suggest open sides to the canopy, along with a folding (or exploding - as in the SLS mercedes with gull wing doors, once it turns beyond a certain angle, they auto trigger blowing the hinges apart) side flap each side of the driver. This would allow a driver to crawl out the side in the event of it being upside down.

I would envisage an issue with arms flailing about, though, when the car would be rotating.

The thing about these canopies, they only need to deflect or retard the debris enough not to cause injury, perhaps some kind of deformation would be good too.

the images below show what I mean by open side, and the shaded area blowing out if it reached perhaps 90 degrees.