EU vote?

[Darcydog]

Well we have Gove on the Sky Debate this evening - Not a man I "warm to" in the slightest. But it will be interesting to see if he handles the hard questions better than how Cameron did when it was his turn

Cameron came over all cliches and sound bites.

If Gove learns from that and does better then the "Out" campaign could gain significant ground.

Originally Posted by wraymond

The sight of Ms. Merkel threatening a bleak future for an independent UK has really made me angry. Not for a long time have I lost my temper but I did today.

I feel very much the same way. A desperate bid, from a desperate german politician whose popularity has sunk to incredible lows due to her mishandling of the migrant crisis.

Her standing in most of Europe is zilch. She is the person who said to all the migrants "Come to Germany" whilst conveniently forgetting that there are several EU and non EU Countries on whatever route these poor people would have to take

The main reason why we have the crisis we have is because Merkel acted like a loose cannon on the issue.

The way I see it - Merkel said that the UK would have a bleak future is because she is scared that if we in the UK do vote "Out" then where the heck does it leave her?

As the 5th largest trading nation in the world I see a huge future for us trading with our longer historical partners and developing countries rather than putting all our "trading eggs" in one EU basket-case.

And this is from someone who personally would be better off if we stay in as we want to spend a lot of our retirement touring in Europe and would rather not be bothered with Visa's - but the more I see the facts and weigh them up - the more I think that overall - an Out vote is the most sensible option.

[wraymond]

Originally Posted by Darcydog

I feel very much the same way. A desperate bid, from a desperate german politician whose popularity has sunk to incredible lows due to her mishandling of the migrant crisis.

Her standing in most of Europe is zilch. She is the person who said to all the migrants "Come to Germany" whilst conveniently forgetting that there are several EU and non EU Countries on whatever route these poor people would have to take

The main reason why we have the crisis we have is because Merkel acted like a loose cannon on the issue.

The way I see it - Merkel said this because she is scared that if we in the UK do vote "Out" then where the heck does it leave her?

Her by default really. If we Leave the rest of EU suffers a huge contribution deficit which can only be met by upping German and French subs (the richest). They are both on the cusp of depression at the moment.

Then others will follow us and it starts to crumble. It's panic time on the Rhine. And the Sienne. And the Danube. The fix is in over the erroneous polling cards and they are beginning to doubt getting their way so they can do the cover up later. Not that I'm suspicious though.

[topman]

I watched a clip of the speech, I didn't see it as threatening more pointing out the obvious. People have more say and influence inside rather than out.

[KWIL]

Topman,

Unfortunately it has already been domonstrated that being IN does not get you anywhere. Cameron tried (apparently) but the answer was always NO to changes. Now all he can do is waffle, neatly picked off for doing that by the young lady student of English on the Sky broadcast!!

None of all this talk will influence me, I have been asking to LEAVE for the last 40 years ever since we were all conned.

When Cameron came back from all the talks, all I could see was a PM "clutching a piece of paper" "I have in my hand a piece of paper signed by ........., only the name of the German Chencellor has changed since September 1938. Same old con again.

[topman]

Originally Posted by KWIL

Topman,

Unfortunately it has already been domonstrated that being IN does not get you anywhere.

I suppose it boils to a matter of opinion. Being in any groups there's always compromise and not getting everything you want.

If your minded to think we have no influence at all, then it's best to think of this as an empty threat, since you can't have less than zero influence.

Me, like I said I don't see it as a thread more political reality.

[wraymond]

Originally Posted by KWIL

Topman,

Unfortunately it has already been domonstrated that being IN does not get you anywhere. Cameron tried (apparently) but the answer was always NO to changes. Now all he can do is waffle, neatly picked off for doing that by the young lady student of English on the sky broadcast!!

None of all this talk will influence dme, I have been asking toLEAVE for the last 40 years ever since we were all conned.

When Cameron came back from all the talks, all I could see was a PM "clutching a piece of paper" "I have in my hand a piece of paper signed by ........., only the name of the German Chencellor has changed since September 1938. Same old con again.

The Cameron reference to 'influence' was dashed on the rocks of Ridiculous Island. The poor relatives in the EU want to remain in to be funded way beyond their wildest dreams, thereby impressing their constituents and staying in power. They are beholden to their paymasters. It's not a new phenomenon, happens all the time. When anyone whispers in the corridors about what they want they are reminded about their indebtedness. Hence it usually being a tally of 27 to 1. Influence - Zilch, in or out.

That girl on the TV made him squirm and blush like a teenager asking for a date.

Originally Posted by topman

I suppose it boils to a matter of opinion. Being in any groups there's always compromise and not getting everything you want.

If your minded to think we have no influence at all, then it's best to think of this as an empty threat, since you can't have less than zero influence.

Me, like I said I don't see it as a thread more political reality.

Jimbo, it's not so much the threat - it doesn't carry much weight anyway. It's entirely the thought process that enabled her to think it would actually intimidate us! I don't believe she is historically ignorant of what went on in the last century and the ensuing sensibilities of the rest of Europe. The only answer it could draw is "Who the hell does she think she is?". You know what is said about handling a bully. Hit back. But first.

[topman]

I genuinely wonder if I've seen a different clip of what she said?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36436726

This is the one I watched.

[Darcydog]

Originally Posted by wraymond

It's entirely the thought process that enabled her to think it would actually intimidate us!

I don't believe she is historically ignorant of what went on in the last century and the ensuing sensibilities of the rest of Europe.

Totally agree with the first point.

But as to the second ..... - From where I stand I have heard a lot of criticism of Merkel by German Industry because she makes rules as tho' she is still in the GDR. In particular she tried to ram-road some tax hits on sectors within the Energy industry without realising that "in the West" these companies can simply hive off a sector that becomes unprofitable due to whatever undue influence - even taxation !!

This is exactly what happened and now Pollution is going up in Germany due to it being more tax efficient to burn coal

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...ollution-jumps

Now the population as a whole is seeing this rather intransigent woman for what she is, exactly because her policies are negatively affecting peoples lives.

[bobthebuilder]

Originally Posted by Darcydog

As the 5th largest trading nation in the world I see a huge future for us trading with our longer historical partners and developing countries rather than putting all our "trading eggs" in one EU basket-case.

Well we won't be the 5th largest trading nation for long if we exit the world's biggest common market. We'll drop right down that table.

The EU us our biggest trading partner and the world's biggest economy. Every single independent economist believes our economy will tank if we leave. You think differently?

Whatever people's motivation for wanting 'Out' claiming we will become more prosperous is fantasy and a non-argument now. I assume the reason the Out campaign has no economic plan and just waffles on about it is they realise it would be too easy to pick holes in it. That was the mistake the SNP made in the independence referendum, when they cited Scotland's economic future on a ridiculous oil price.

[Darcydog]

Originally Posted by topman

I genuinely wonder if I've seen a different clip of what she said?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36436726

This is the one I watched.

I think it is certainly the inference rather than the specific words - but I certainly do think this was very much a warning that EU members supposedly "would not be in a hurry" to negotiate trade deals with a UK outside of the EU.

And to be fair - this is very much a legitimate concern. And if the EU was a vibrant expanding trading block then any such delay could be a serious concern.

But we already trade extensively outside of the EU. In fact the more I look at the facts - it seems to me that the EU regulations if anything compromise our ability to develop trade with the rest of the world outside of the EU.

The Euro currency experiment is stalled at best and at worst has committed many EU nations to decades of austerity unemployment and youth unemployment especially.

Germany needs the EU and the Euro because without the Euro German goods would be staggeringly expensive.

Merkel knows that if the UK votes Out then there are many countries that would most likely follow. And that would mean the steady erosion of influence for Germany and the prospect of having to compete in a more open market rather than a closed one very much controlled by them.