Bio Diesel - Page 2

JohnDotCom · 16th November 2007, 22:37

I'm not sure of Official reason for BMW and FORD but I believe it is something to do with Seals and Pumps.

Does anyone Know correct reason, I'm sure it has been Posted? Rover Ron?

BigRuss · 17th November 2007, 00:05

MGR technical bulletin TB0082 dated 08/11/02 states that:

The use of vegetable oil or Biodiesel of more than 5% mix could cause:
Degradation of the fuel hoses and seals which could cause leaks,
Contamination of the fuel pumps leding to premature failure,
Possible injector replacement due to build up of laquer,
Excessive carbon deposits in cylinder head and bore that would require a top end strip down to clean, also this would cause a quicker degradation of the oil as a result, causing premature wear to the engine and higher exhaust emissions which could lead to a MOT failure.

Pretty expensive if you get it wrong!

Yes, I would like to run my car on cheaper fuel we all would, but unless someone can guarantee (and by that be liable to costs if wrong) that there isn't a problem, then I'd rather not thanks!

I did quite a bit of research a while back when I drove Citroen diesels ( XUD's which are compatible). To do the job properly you would need to either: manufacture you own biodiesel which isn't a back yard job and entails the use of some pretty nasty chemicals, or to run on veg oil it needs to heated in order to lower it's viscosity. there are kits to do this but only on compatible vehicles(most of which are not common rail diesels like those found in the R75/MG).

If you look at:http://www.dieselveg.com/Vehicle%20List.htm

You will notice that there isn't ANY MG/Rover vehicles in the compatibility list!!

Makes some interesting reading though!

Russ

JohnDotCom · 17th November 2007, 19:42

Switch to Gas.

mickhill · 12th December 2007, 10:02

My advice to anyone thinking of putting biodiesel in their 75 or ZT would be don't. A friend of mine (mechanic) recommended that I give it a go so I did. Seemed to run OK at first if a little slower to start up. Ran OK for a few hundered miles but the on motorway one day I suffered complete loss of power and had to be towed home. The following day it started and ran OK but thought I should get it checked out by my garage (where my mechanic friend works). Diagnostic test revealed no major problems but I had done some research which and found a biodiesel supplier who said that when changing from diesel to bio you should also change the fuel filter because the bio can dislodge lots of crud out of the fuel system. I asked told this to the garage and they changed the fuel filter and the car is now fine but I don't use bio any more. The boss at the garage went on a diesel injection training course and he raised the problem that I had experienced. The answer he was given was that you should avoid bio if you have a car (like a 75) that has its fuel pump in the tank. The reason for this was that the bio can leave a coating on the fuel pump which might cause premature failure. I also read somewhere that bio is more aggressive/corrosive that derv, maybe due to the acid used in its manufacture. Point is in a car the already has a weakness in the fuel pump design DO NOT do anything that might accelerate the failure of the pump.

I hope this answers any doubts that any diesel 75 / ZT owner might have about using bio.

Mick

JohnDotCom · 12th December 2007, 10:39

Some Interesting Pointers there Mick.
As previously stated I would never put this Stuff in my car.

See Rover Ron's post on Damage to seals etc.

Roverron · 12th December 2007, 15:06

On Sunday's Top Gear, the maniacs used bio diesel in a BMW 330d and tried to run it in a 24hr race at SIlverstone.

It only lasted a few hours before needing a new injection pump, & injectors due to "methanol in the diesel attacking the seals" said Clarkson.

This just backs up claims that using more than the 5% blend is not a good idea.

Equally, veg oil is, in my view, too viscous and I don't think anyone knows what happens when it is subjected to very high pressures - well over 20,000psi in common rail systems.
I believe used veg oil contains a significant amount of H2O as well, so what happens to its lubricating properties under extreme pressure?

Ron

podge · 12th December 2007, 15:36

My old Mondeo, duratec engine,indirect injection, turbo and cat, was quite happy on a 50/50 mix of diesel/rape seed oil, still going strong at 190000 did smell like a Friday night chip shop! The problems with later Ford injection pumps was inherent, they had poor case hardening on pump rollers, no amount of lubrication would fix it, just a poor batch of pumps. As for single rail, cannot say but pressures are so much higher.

T-Cut · 12th December 2007, 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roverron

It only lasted a few hours before needing a new injection pump, & injectors due to "methanol in the diesel attacking the seals" said Clarkson

What Clarkson was referring to is Methyl Esters, which are created by the chemical reaction of methanol on vegetable oils. There's no methanol as such in biodiesel. Methyl Esters will attack synthetic polymers used in seals and such. It makes them swell/soften.

Quote:

Equally, veg oil is, in my view, too viscous and I don't think anyone knows what happens when it is subjected to very high pressures - well over 20,000psi in common rail systems.

The problems will be mechanical rather than chemical. The oil won't be changed significantly by the pressure, but the higher viscosity will prevent it moving through the system at the intended rate. It will definitely put stress on any pump that's compressing it, possibly causing damage.

Quote:

I believe used veg oil contains a significant amount of H2O as well, so what happens to its lubricating properties under extreme pressure?

Anyone using recycled veg oil directly in their engine is inviting trouble. Used oils contain traces of whatever it was used to cook - water certainly, from the foodstuffs, plus proteins from the fish/chicken legs and starches from the chips and batter. The only sensible use for old cooking fats is in the manufacture of biodiesel with methanol. All the impurity gubbins are removed during the refining stages.

Has anyone come across the use of castor oil as a diesel fuel? Castor has unique lubricating properties and as many here will know, was/is used as a lube in racing engines/2-strokes/etc. Having said that, castor is also pretty viscous, so the mechanical issues are still applicable.

TC

Roverron · 12th December 2007, 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Cut

What Clarkson was referring to is Methyl Esters, which are created by the chemical reaction of methanol on vegetable oils. There's no methanol as such in biodiesel. Methyl Esters will attack synthetic polymers used in seals and such. It makes them swell/soften.

The problems will be mechanical rather than chemical. The oil won't be changed significantly by the pressure, but the higher viscosity will prevent it moving through the system at the intended rate. It will definitely put stress on any pump that's compressing it, possibly causing damage.

Anyone using recycled veg oil directly in their engine is inviting trouble. Used oils contain traces of whatever it was used to cook - water certainly, from the foodstuffs, plus proteins from the fish/chicken legs and starches from the chips and batter. The only sensible use for old cooking fats is in the manufacture of biodiesel with methanol. All the impurity gubbins are removed during the refining stages.

Has anyone come across the use of castor oil as a diesel fuel? Castor has unique lubricating properties and as many here will know, was/is used as a lube in racing engines/2-strokes/etc. Having said that, castor is also pretty viscous, so the mechanical issues are still applicable.

TC

I'm not convinced that the pressures aren't relevant. After all lubricating oils need 'extreme pressure' additives to cope with camshaft and transmissions. So has anyone compared the lubricant ability at these pressures of diesel, biodiesel, svo and wvo?

Is Castor oil not carcinogenic or toxic or have some other health issues?

Ron

david2000 · 13th December 2007, 19:26

how can you tell the diffrence between bio diesel and heavy oil
my rover 75 tourer diesel isnt running correctly and this has happened since i filled the tank up a fortnight ago in the morrisons in carmarthen
my friend took a sample out and it was green in colour and he remarked that it looked less dense than normall diesel plus he remarked that it had a diffrent smell and also smelt and looked diffrent comeing out of the exhaust, can any one advise

all the best
david

12th December 2007, 10:02	#14
mickhill Newbie Rover 75 saloon Join Date: May 2007 Location: Stoke-on-Trent Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Don't use biodiesel in 75 / ZT My advice to anyone thinking of putting biodiesel in their 75 or ZT would be don't. A friend of mine (mechanic) recommended that I give it a go so I did. Seemed to run OK at first if a little slower to start up. Ran OK for a few hundered miles but the on motorway one day I suffered complete loss of power and had to be towed home. The following day it started and ran OK but thought I should get it checked out by my garage (where my mechanic friend works). Diagnostic test revealed no major problems but I had done some research which and found a biodiesel supplier who said that when changing from diesel to bio you should also change the fuel filter because the bio can dislodge lots of crud out of the fuel system. I asked told this to the garage and they changed the fuel filter and the car is now fine but I don't use bio any more. The boss at the garage went on a diesel injection training course and he raised the problem that I had experienced. The answer he was given was that you should avoid bio if you have a car (like a 75) that has its fuel pump in the tank. The reason for this was that the bio can leave a coating on the fuel pump which might cause premature failure. I also read somewhere that bio is more aggressive/corrosive that derv, maybe due to the acid used in its manufacture. Point is in a car the already has a weakness in the fuel pump design DO NOT do anything that might accelerate the failure of the pump. I hope this answers any doubts that any diesel 75 / ZT owner might have about using bio. Mick

12th December 2007, 15:06	#16
Roverron Gets stuck in Rover Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tarbert Posts: 980 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 9 Posts	On Sunday's Top Gear, the maniacs used bio diesel in a BMW 330d and tried to run it in a 24hr race at SIlverstone. It only lasted a few hours before needing a new injection pump, & injectors due to "methanol in the diesel attacking the seals" said Clarkson. This just backs up claims that using more than the 5% blend is not a good idea. Equally, veg oil is, in my view, too viscous and I don't think anyone knows what happens when it is subjected to very high pressures - well over 20,000psi in common rail systems. I believe used veg oil contains a significant amount of H2O as well, so what happens to its lubricating properties under extreme pressure? Ron __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Click to visit my website Ron on Twitter MyFacebook page

13th December 2007, 19:26	#20
david2000 Loves to post Rover 75 Tourer Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Ammanford Posts: 493 Thanks: 248 Thanked 29 Times in 24 Posts	bio diesel how can you tell the diffrence between bio diesel and heavy oil my rover 75 tourer diesel isnt running correctly and this has happened since i filled the tank up a fortnight ago in the morrisons in carmarthen my friend took a sample out and it was green in colour and he remarked that it looked less dense than normall diesel plus he remarked that it had a diffrent smell and also smelt and looked diffrent comeing out of the exhaust, can any one advise all the best david

16th November 2007, 22:37	#11
JohnDotCom * Rover 75 FaceLift Tourer CDTi 170BHP Auto ConnSE 2005 Model Starlight Silver Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Abergele Posts: 28,735 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I'm not sure of Official reason for BMW and FORD but I believe it is something to do with Seals and Pumps. Does anyone Know correct reason, I'm sure it has been Posted? Rover Ron?

17th November 2007, 00:05	#12
BigRuss Premium Trader 75 CDT Tourer,2.5 Launch Saloon, Omipro MG/Rover (T4) Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Liversedge, West Yorkshire Posts: 5,411 Thanks: 1,105 Thanked 1,340 Times in 661 Posts	MGR technical bulletin TB0082 dated 08/11/02 states that: The use of vegetable oil or Biodiesel of more than 5% mix could cause: Degradation of the fuel hoses and seals which could cause leaks, Contamination of the fuel pumps leding to premature failure, Possible injector replacement due to build up of laquer, Excessive carbon deposits in cylinder head and bore that would require a top end strip down to clean, also this would cause a quicker degradation of the oil as a result, causing premature wear to the engine and higher exhaust emissions which could lead to a MOT failure. Pretty expensive if you get it wrong! Yes, I would like to run my car on cheaper fuel we all would, but unless someone can guarantee (and by that be liable to costs if wrong) that there isn't a problem, then I'd rather not thanks! I did quite a bit of research a while back when I drove Citroen diesels ( XUD's which are compatible). To do the job properly you would need to either: manufacture you own biodiesel which isn't a back yard job and entails the use of some pretty nasty chemicals, or to run on veg oil it needs to heated in order to lower it's viscosity. there are kits to do this but only on compatible vehicles(most of which are not common rail diesels like those found in the R75/MG). If you look at:http://www.dieselveg.com/Vehicle%20List.htm You will notice that there isn't ANY MG/Rover vehicles in the compatibility list!! Makes some interesting reading though! Russ

17th November 2007, 19:42	#13
JohnDotCom * Rover 75 FaceLift Tourer CDTi 170BHP Auto ConnSE 2005 Model Starlight Silver Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Abergele Posts: 28,735 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Switch to Gas.

12th December 2007, 10:39	#15
JohnDotCom * Rover 75 FaceLift Tourer CDTi 170BHP Auto ConnSE 2005 Model Starlight Silver Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Abergele Posts: 28,735 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Some Interesting Pointers there Mick. As previously stated I would never put this Stuff in my car. See Rover Ron's post on Damage to seals etc.

12th December 2007, 15:36	#17
podge I really should get out more....... Rover 75 Tourer CDT CLUB SE Copper Red Mica Dec 01 ....now deceased....replaced by2003 Royal Blue T Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: North Warnborough, Hampshire Posts: 2,398 Thanks: 9 Thanked 69 Times in 20 Posts	My old Mondeo, duratec engine,indirect injection, turbo and cat, was quite happy on a 50/50 mix of diesel/rape seed oil, still going strong at 190000 did smell like a Friday night chip shop! The problems with later Ford injection pumps was inherent, they had poor case hardening on pump rollers, no amount of lubrication would fix it, just a poor batch of pumps. As for single rail, cannot say but pressures are so much higher.