EU vote?

[KWIL]

To be perfectly correct most of the Upper Chamber are ex MPs sent to the other place to enhance their incomes by merely signing in.

As for the UK having any say in Brussels (or is it Strasbourg this week). Our voting strength is insignificant whereas our financial contribution is rather larger than most. Leave, take our money back (whatever the amount it actually is), spend it on ourselves in the way we want to.

No price to leave is too high.

[spyder]

Originally Posted by marinabrian

I'm not simply talking about EU nationals Craig, I know a chap who is currently employed as a bus driver, his wife in the bus depot office.

He is a qualified electronics tech, and she is....... well she is a doctor, now that is what I call a complete waste of talent

There is absolutely no need to be part of a Federal Europe to attract skilled workers, but it is certainly a sure fire way of attracting a lot of burden from the more impoverished members of the European Union

Brian

That is the point I am trying to make about this Brian, Not the EU nationals at all, but professionals from countries outside the EU, ie commonwealth countries. They very often have the skill that are needed here but cannot/ do not have the right to be in the country. It is almost impossible for them to get here, very expensive to get into the country and then their impressive degrees are not recognised here (your friends case in point). Opting out of the EU will not change this.
The flow of illegal immigrants getting into the country and staying will only get worse if the rest of the EU are not going to be part of the solution, why would they want to help if we choose to "go it alone"?

[wraymond]

Originally Posted by bobthebuilder

Where does this myth about the EU being unelected or undemocratic come from?

"The European Commission doesn’t make laws. It only makes proposals, which are then debated, amended and passed (or rejected) by elected national governments and directly-elected MEPs. In any case, Commissioners themselves are accountable to the European Parliament, which elects its president, approves its appointment and can dismiss it."

An since when was the UK so democratic? We have a bunch of unelected in-breds in the House of Lords, all the Quangos, special advisors, lobbyists etc.

Flippin' 'eck Bob, I know you are not being obtuse, but think on it a bit!:

"The European Commission doesn't make laws........then debated, amended and passed or rejected by elected govs,.....and MEP's" (My truncation but careful not to lose context).

The whole point about this is as said earlier - the Commission will not propose, draw up, or consider new laws or political directions that are not in furtherance of stated EU principles of full integration into full political union. That means Federal Government through unelected control by committee. Anything that the Commission doesn't like will be 'remitted'. That's a term used by every Trade Union boss there has ever been, when he sees a new rule being proposed, to kick it into the long grass! (I spent years as a Trade Union local officer and Conference Delegate and have fallen foul of this once or twice!)
They are committed to this and will not take any action that challenges that overriding principle. At least, not until they absolutely have to if faced by the complete collapse of the Union.

That can only result in the elected members, at any tier, no matter if elected or not or by whom, having no democratic input into the laws governing the population. Briefly, the elected representatives of the people do not compose the laws and do not control the overseeing of the drafting of the laws. It's a very basic and vital principle of government inherited from the ancient Greeks, Romans and others.

The present set-up is a phoney pastiche designed to assuage the politically ill-advised or easily hood-winked (I could use stronger language but choose not to in the interests of fraternal niceties) by the originators who knew to make their plans obvious would get them nowhere. HTH

[Polly]

Originally Posted by marinabrian

I'm not simply talking about EU nationals Craig, I know a chap who is currently employed as a bus driver, his wife in the bus depot office.



He is a qualified electronics tech, and she is....... well she is a doctor, now that is what I call a complete waste of talent



There is absolutely no need to be part of a Federal Europe to attract skilled workers, but it is certainly a sure fire way of attracting a lot of burden from the more impoverished members of the European Union



Brian

You sum up the real problem perfectly, because we are being swamped by millions of unskilled EU workers, we are refusing entry to non EU workers that may have the skills we really need.
Of course you should consider both sides of the argument.
Any country within the free movement area which is experiencing a growing economy is going to be flooded with unskilled workers seeking the "gold rush"
But what will happen once mainland Europe digs itself out of its present mess? Aren't those migrant workers going to leave Britain like rats leaving a sinking ship. If we can't manage without the migrant workers, how are we going to manage when Germany has a labour shortage? Isn't this freedom of movement an ideology that in practice just won't work, and is only capable of dragging us down to the level of the lowest denominator.
ie
Minimum wage zero hour contracts for all


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[spyder]

Originally Posted by Polly

You sum up the real problem perfectly, because we are being swamped by millions of unskilled EU workers, we are refusing entry to non EU workers that may have the skills we really need.
Of course you should consider both sides of the argument.
Any country within the free movement area which is experiencing a growing economy is going to be flooded with unskilled workers seeking the "gold rush"
But what will happen once mainland Europe digs itself out of its present mess? Aren't those migrant workers going to leave Britain like rats leaving a sinking ship. If we can't manage without the migrant workers, how are we going to manage when Germany has a labour shortage? Isn't this freedom of movement an ideology that in practice just won't work, and is only capable of dragging us down to the level of the lowest denominator.
ie
Minimum wage zero hour contracts for all


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

How will been out of the UK going to stop this influx? British law will have to change not EU law. The problem is here already and without paperwork there is nowhere to send them, without the help of the EU, how many illegal immigrants will actually be deported?

If immigration is the only reason people are voting out, a lot has to change within the borders for things to come right I think. Will this actually happen?

[wraymond]

Heard an argument I’d not come across before. We went to Bluewater today. M25 to Dartford crossing and on to Chavtowne.

Huge trucks all the way. Some wait for you to come alongside to overtake and choose that moment to change lanes into yours. Some like the car so much they sit on the back bumper. Others full of teddy bears along the dash, one even had a Betty Boop blow-up doll (full size) in the passenger seat.

Celia gasped and pointed, saying “No, it can’t be!” I said “No, it’s left-hand drive dear”. The point is all the trucks were from Europe mainland, maybe a whole mile of them at one stage. Celia thought if Brexit came about it would mean very few trucks on the road if the Remainders were right about trade falling off a cliff. That’s a thought. But here’s another one. She then came up with a killer. Celia, a model Middle England housewife, without a political bone in her but with all the sarcasm of a combination of Prunella Scales and Maureen Lipman, said:

“Of course, that would also do away with the need for those scruffy camps in Calais.”
I said “Why’s that, dear?” (trying not to sound too patronising).
She came back “Well, think of it. No more trucks to climb into. What would be the point?”
“Yes, dear”.

She amazes me sometimes. It’s surprising the different points of view you come across in the most unlikely places. I paid for lunch in tribute. I felt so proud of her I could have cried.

[Polly]

Originally Posted by spyder

How will been out of the UK going to stop this influx? British law will have to change not EU law. The problem is here already and without paperwork there is nowhere to send them, without the help of the EU, how many illegal immigrants will actually be deported?

If immigration is the only reason people are voting out, a lot has to change within the borders for things to come right I think. Will this actually happen?

Please don't confuse illegal immigrants or refugees with the influx of EU migrant workers. Perhaps if we didn't have quite so many EU migrants, we could actually take more refugees.
Outside EU, we don't need to change any immigration laws. They may need a small tweek, but the appropriate laws are mostly already in place.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[spyder]

Originally Posted by Polly

Please don't confuse illegal immigrants or refugees with the influx of EU migrant workers. Perhaps if we didn't have quite so many EU migrants, we could actually take more refugees.
Outside EU, we don't need to change any immigration laws. They may need a small tweek, but the appropriate laws are mostly already in place.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Not confusing the two at all, just not sure how an out vote will sort out the outflow of money to the EU (migrant workers) or the influx of illegals.
I ask this seeking an answer or people views, so please do not consider it in any way argumentative.

The reason I mentioned the current immigration laws, was in response to brains comments about needing skilled/professional immigration. The current laws are keeping these people out, as they are easy soft targets. A discussion for another time, one that few on here can educate me on unfortunately.

Craig.

[Polly]

Originally Posted by spyder

Not confusing the two at all, just not sure how an out vote will sort out the outflow of money to the EU (migrant workers) or the influx of illegals.
I ask this seeking an answer or people views, so please do not consider it in any way argumentative.

The reason I mentioned the current immigration laws, was in response to brains comments about needing skilled/professional immigration. The current laws are keeping these people out, as they are easy soft targets. A discussion for another time, one that few on here can educate me on unfortunately.

Craig.

I agree, that unless the government has a will to tackle the problem, it way well make little difference.
Net migration stands at 333,000 (and rising) of which half (184,00) are from the EU, and as such can't be refused entry. Outside the EU, theoretically, that 184,000 could be refused entry/work permit. Of course quite why the 149,00 non EU migrants are allowed entry has yet to be explained, but I have to assume they are here on merit.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[spyder]

Originally Posted by Polly

I agree, that unless the government has a will to tackle the problem, it way well make little difference.
Net migration stands at 333,000 (and rising) of which half (184,00) are from the EU, and as such can't be refused entry. Outside the EU, theoretically, that 184,000 could be refused entry/work permit. Of course quite why the 149,00 non EU migrants are allowed entry has yet to be explained, but I have to assume they are here on merit.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

A lot of that 149 000 (non-EU) will be tier 1- Highly skilled migrant or tier 2 Visa- general work visa, where a company will sponsor the migrant this would include carers and nurses depending on their skill.
Add to this spousal visa applicants and their children on family visa's, many of these will come in from/through the ROI (another story completely ) . Of course this figure does not include people immigrating with automatic UK citizenship via descent or grandfathers from Scotland.

I have been told that the EU specifies how many tier 1 & 2 Visa's that the UK may hand out, yet to find any freely available info on this.. If this is so, it will again influence ones decision to vote one way or another.

But how are we mere mortals supposed to make an informed decision without knowing how our vote will affect us further down the line.