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- - HHO Generators (https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=96600)

Rover 75 Mk1 2ltr V6 Connoisseur Tourer
Hi,
Does anyone know about these/fitted one?
I have been reading up on them and according to the info they can enhance fuel consumption by up to 30%.
I understand you can either buy a kit or make one.
I would appreciate any info as I am thinking about getting one.

Thanks Cliff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff.Harding (Post 839973)

All the research I have read up on them seem to suggest that your better off with the "Ebay Resistor"

One question that has to be asked... If these are so good, why don't manufacturers fit them as standard? :shrug:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff.Harding (Post 839973)

Unless there is something effect going on which no one has yet discovered, they cannot possibly work. Basically they turn some of the electrical energy you are paying to produce, into Browns Gas - which your then burn. So the theory is you get more energy out of the process, than you put in - which is scientifically impossible.

However, there are a lot of people working on it, expending a lot of energy on it privately and reporting some success. They also suggest the kits are next to useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GadgetBoy (Post 839983)

Ah, the old "something for nothing" trick. Otherwise known as Snake Oil!

For a start. Where does the 15 amps come from to start the electrolysis? It comes from your alternator. However, in order to generate that 15 amps or 180 watts your engine has to generate something in the region of 500 watts. In order to generate 500 watts of power the engine has to burn sufficient fuel to generate somewhere between 2-3kw of thermal energy. That's before we even think of how much hydrogen has been released.

In 10 minutes, 15 amps will produce approximately 0.795gms of Hydrogen.

Faraday's Law

Faraday's laws can be summarised by

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/8/8...eb410a0c6e.png

where

m is the mass of the substance altered at an electrode
Q is the total electric charge passed through the substance
F = 96 485 C mol-1 is the Faraday constant
M is the molar mass of the substance
z is the valence number of ions of the substance (electrons transferred per ion)

By the way. I have Degree in Chemical Engineering.

That assumes the electrolyte will take 15amps. It won't. The only electrolytes that will take all the current you give them are molten pure salts and the amount of enegry required to melt them is simply staggering.

For example, smelting Aluminium (aluminum) requires 106'000 amps at 600 volts. That's 64 megawatts.

They're using baking soda to make the electrolyte or Sodium Bicarbonate. Well it's about 0.0000001% NaHCO3. Most of it is starch. However, there's a reason. Using NaHCO3 will generate loads of bubbles. Trouble is, most of it is Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide and Halogen gasses due to impurities in the water and the anode and cathode. None of which are any use to you at all. In fact, sufficient oxygen may be produced to lean out your mixture and cause all sorts of problems.

These things get credence because the vast vast majority of people who buy them won't admit they've been had.

Thanks for your comment, I have not got a degree in chemical engineering and so the reason I ask is to find someone who knows the answer. However isn't water H2o so in theory if you split them down you get 2 atoms of Hydrogen and 1 of oxygen?
The systems I have seen on the web draw 20 amps and they claim produces up to 3 litres of HHo per minute.
Now my questions are;
1, Is 20 amps too heavy for the alternator to produce and how much drag will that produce on the system?

2, Some of the systems use what they call an in line drip trap infiltration filter they say removes impurities so all you get out is Hydrogen, Is that possible/plauseable?

3, They are using Potassium Hydroxide would this produce less impurities?

4, According to some information The oxygen sensor needs to be moved or the hydrgen feed far enough from it to not to interfere with the ECU readings. or a re-mapping to allow for the different mixture. Is that credible?

As I say I am an open minded person and am interested in all ways of saving energy, not only for the planet but also for my pocket.

Motor Manufacturers have been investing in this technology for years, there is already a hydrogen fuel cell car which uses the hydrogen to run an electric motor.
Maybe the main reason these systems are not mainstream is perhaps the oil companies have a vested interest in it not working (they hold most of the Patents)
I would be interested in your comments please.

Cheers Cliff.

Speaking of rover antennas, Is that the one with the muliple feeds that was phased out with the Project drive initiative?
I think mine is the one after (2001 model)

this bit of kit your talking about is it a WATERBOOST kit if so check out CAR MECHANICS magazine they did a long term test on it about 2-3 months ago,and the kit is for sale on ebay, follow the links in the description for a detailed look

No it's not that particular system but along the same lines.
I looked the waterboost system up it is much more expensive than the systems I have been looking at but very similar.
I will look at the reviews if I can find them.
Thanks

Ok thanks,
The thing is I am a realist and I know there is no such thing as something for nothing.
But, if there is a way to save a bit of energy, Improve the efficiency of the engine, and reduce harmful emmisions. isn't that worth a look at least?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GadgetBoy (Post 840537)

You will get much more benefit from regular car maintenance and thoughtful driving.

:iagree:

Simon.

QUOTE=Cliff.Harding

Thanks for your comment, I have not got a degree in chemical engineering and so the reason I ask is to find someone who knows the answer. However isn't water H2o so in theory if you split them down you get 2 atoms of Hydrogen and 1 of oxygen?

Basically, yes - the two gasses mixed together are called Brown's Gas.

The systems I have seen on the web draw 20 amps and they claim produces up to 3 litres of HHo per minute.

It might draw and produce that initially, but the electrodes will quickly become saturated with gas bubbles adhiring to the plates, at which point the output/current goes rapidely down.

Now my questions are;
1, Is 20 amps too heavy for the alternator to produce and how much drag will that produce on the system?

Not a problem - your alternator produces around 150amps I think. The extra drag will not be even noticed,

2, Some of the systems use what they call an in line drip trap infiltration filter they say removes impurities so all you get out is Hydrogen, Is that possible/plauseable?

Not possible or even desirable. The HHO mix of gasses is exactly what is needed to burn and recombine back to water. Some systems use what is called a bubbler, all it does is prevent the flame from the engine passing back into the main gas producing unit.

4, According to some information The oxygen sensor needs to be moved or the hydrgen feed far enough from it to not to interfere with the ECU readings. or a re-mapping to allow for the different mixture. Is that credible?

Not really, sounds like a get out, for when the unit does not do what is claimed - which it won't.

As I say I am an open minded person and am interested in all ways of saving energy, not only for the planet but also for my pocket.

Motor Manufacturers have been investing in this technology for years, there is already a hydrogen fuel cell car which uses the hydrogen to run an electric motor.

That is a completely different technology.

Maybe the main reason these systems are not mainstream is perhaps the oil companies have a vested interest in it not working (they hold most of the Patents)

There always is a reason why the technology has not be adopted, other than that it simply doesn't work.

I would be interested in your comments please.

Cheers Cliff.

If you want to get involved, fairy nuff, but don't buy a kit. Build your self a DIY unit after doing a bit of research. All the details are on the web to enable you to build one much better and at less cost.

There are also several Yahoo forums on the subject, inhabited by some very clever people - who are claiming some success with HHO.