Crusty corroded brake pipes
 

Hi.
My old trusty 75 manged to get through another mot but i did get an advisory on the dreaded copper brake pipes being corroded. After shopping around for the best deal in getting them replaced I've found a garage (who i trust). They've qouted me £180 to get them all sorted out. From the wealth of experience here would agree this is a reasonable price.
Many thanks for your advice appreciated,
Johnny 😁

If your pipes are original they won't be copper - wouldn't replace them with copper either. :D
Ask your garage to use Kunifer pipe.

I've just been quoted £200 to have mine done. That's for the lot to be changed.

But that's with me supplying new flexi brake pipes and the unions and copper pipe myself.

Not sure if I'll get them to do it, or have a go myself.

The tricky bit is getting through the fuel tank area - you have to drop the tank (or remove it) to run the pipes from the long fore & aft line to the rear caliper hoses.

That's the bit that concerns me!
Can they be re-routed?

Do it properly, don't re-route the pipes. If the car is up on a ramp the garage will be able to undo the tank strap and then lower the tank. I've seen a few cars there they have been re-routed and it just doesn't look right underneath. If they are running the pipes then the 10~ mins to lower the tank will be the least time consuming part.

Fair enough.

I'm thinking about having a go myself, how bad a job is it to remove the fuel tank?
My tank strap looks pretty cruddy as well. I think I read somewhere that stainless steel straps are available from somewhere?

Fair enough, it would be a lot easier if it up on a 2 post / 4 post ramp. I believe it is just the bolts that secure it and the clamp that holds the filler hose to the tank and it should have enough room to be lowered. You may have to lift the back seat and check the wiring isn't tight. I've not removed the tank myself but I saw the tank removed when I had the brake pipes done on my typhoon. Tank strap on that had been on there for around 160K and had been sat in a garden for a couple years and it didn't break and came off.

You don’t have to remove the fuel tank, undo the strap and rest the tank on the exhaust this allows enough room to get to the clips.

Richard,

I agree with Trikey but for a different reason. The pipe run across the top of the fuel tank won't be corroded simply because it's never in contact with rainwater or road salt so there's no need to replace it.

If you're vigilant with the surface rust on the short visible pipes in the front wheel arches and those running towards the rear wheels and treat them accordingly, you won't have a problem there either.

That leaves the length under the floorpan on the driver's side which fails where the pipes are held in the plastic clips. This can be cut out and renewed from the unions above the front subframe to the point where the pipes rise to the top of the fuel tank. That's what I did many years ago and it's worked beautifully. It really isn't necessary to change the whole lot but I know that many owners will want to regardless.

Simon

Half a job Simon, most unlike you......

Generally speaking the worst affected areas of the fore and aft pipes are the parts where the come down the bulkhead, at the front, the underfloor sections, and where the pipe runs along the chassis member at the rear of the car at the point it connects to the rear flexible pipework.

So if the pipe is corroded to excess in the first area, it will be corroded to excess in the second area also, and my experience has shown this to be the case time and time again.

However as Simon points out, the section above the fuel tank will be spotless, so it will make a good pattern for the new pipework to be fashioned from.

Don't mistakenly crop the pipe forwards of the tank, it is simply not worth it.

I can replace both sides with the car reversed up a set of standard ramps without difficulty, and this includes dropping the tank to do so, and doing the job properly ;)

Brian :D

Righteo then!

I've got 'till March to sort it all out.

I'll only get chance to do it at the weekends and when it's dry, so bit's and bobs when I can.

Thanks very much everyone for your advice!

I've been quoted £100 by a local chap that does our cars. Chris Marshall. Will be getting it done when it comes out of hiding!

That's a good price, how many pipes is that to replace?

Removing the fuel tank isn't really the hard part - it's getting all the hoses reconnected and back into their retaining clips that's the tricky bit. The tank has to be almost touching the floorpan before the hoses will reach, by which time there's barely any room to get your hand up behind it to guide everything to the right place. (NB. I did mine on my own with the car on blocks - it'd be a lot easier on a lift with two people).

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/for...06be1177dc.jpg


I changed the strap for a stainless one - bought it on eBay. It was made by Garry Bartram from Chesterfield - I don't know if he does them any more. It's a proper job - much more solid than the original factory ones.

Btw, I wouldn't re-route the pipes if I were you. They've taken them through the tank area to keep them as far away from the road as possible and reduce the risk of something smacking into them. It wouldn't take much of a whack to crush one (not good :eek:).

You don't need to fully remove the tank in order that the brake pipes can be replaced, it is simply a case of lowering it down and resting it on the exhaust pipe.

The only thing that needs to be removed is the filler neck tube, and that's a jubilee clip ;)

Brian :D

Correded Brake Pipes
 

Getting mine done at the end of the month, along with some new arms by the local MG Rover Specialist (Turbo Dave), and he will do the job very well, done a set on one of my previous MGs, and he will charge around £100 to do the brake pipes, so well worth it

Stu

Are you sure your's need doing Stu? Surely tucked up in that nice warm man cave, with carpet underfoot and being polished to a high sheen should mean they never need replacing :D

Chris

Yes Mate, need doing, as car is now 16 years old, and the MGF and the XKR live in the Man Cave with underfloor carpets and covers on them

Maybe you have not yet seen the XKR

https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s...58&postcount=1

Stu

Stu’s brake pipes need replacing as they are now wafer thin due to all the polishing they have had...

I know - that's why I said lower it (or remove it) in post 4.

I removed mine completely because I wanted to drain it (old fuel) and sort out the paint blips on the spot welds.

To be fair Simon, you are the exception rather than the rule in respect of the care and attention to detail in carrying out the work to your car :bowdown:

I replaced these pipes on my dad's tourer last year, the previous owner had carried out an SD1too style shortcut, which had reached end of life after four years.

If you are going to replace fixed brake pipe, it is foolhardy to cut corners, especially as you save perhaps an hour at most, and a couple of feet of pipe.

I remain sceptical of anyone advocating "cleaning up the ends" of pipework, to be as thorough as they claim to be when it comes to maintenance of other items, when such a basic safety critical item is bodged.

Brian :D

Its for the front to rears. Mine are just starting to go at the back where they join.

Many thanks to everyone for all your info and the pics!

I think it'll be a week or two before I start doing the job, I've ordered my brake hoses this morning, and I'll have to find my brake flair tool and blow the dust off it as it's been a couple of years since I last used it!

I'll let you all know how it goes!

Richard

The previous owner would not have worked to my high standards so your comparison is invalid.

Simon

No of course not Simon, but they did a half job, exactly like you are advising others to do Simon, and if your standards were that high, you would have completed the job ;)


I thought the mantra was "doesn't do things by halves", I'm afraid you have failed to do the job fully, missed the opportunity to make the car's braking system fully sound by virtue of "dressing up" the grotty ends of not only the front to rear pipes, but also the front pipes where they pass through the grommets in the inner wings.

It's called "spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar" and to advise others to do likewise will make you appear slipshod, not to mention having to do the job twice ;)

Do it right first time, do it once and relax, no more wire wool and grease at MOT time ;)

Brian :D

Oh dear, another diatribe of utter nonsense. :o I will have to put you right, yet again. Sigh.
I don't advise others to do anything Brian. I impart my experience and let others make up their own minds. I am not a dictator like you.
That's correct.
Ahh, you don't understand the philosophy. "Not doing things by halves" means repairing what is broken, no less and no more, to the highest standards. Your approach is blanket renewal at a high cost in both time and parts. That is not intelligent or cost effective.
On the contrary, my braking system is absolutely perfect at a fraction of the cost in time and money of your practice.
I don't have any "grotty ends" and my front pipes are in excellent condition due to my high standards of maintenance.
It's called efficient maintenance in financial and engineering terms. Those who choose to follow my example will keep their cars running for longer at a fraction of the cost of your wasteful and unnecessary practices.
Exactly as I recommend.
I use neither on brake pipes.

Now put your keyboard in a drawer and do some thinking for a change.

Simon

......... your understanding of this phrase explains a lot.

Your experience based upon a sample of one car Simon, mine is based upon many times that number, and I certainly don't dictate, I merely advise accordingly to the cumulative experience I've gained over the years ;)

.

On the other hand doing half a job is false economy Simon ;)

Kunifer brake pipe is less than sixty pence per foot, how absolutely spendthrift to use an extra three feet !! :getmecoat:

You must have the only Rover 75 not affected by use or age then Simon :bowdown:

No Simon, it is called skimping on safety critical maintenance, and if your maintenance standards were that high, can I ask why you had to replace any of the fixed pipework on your car?

What you have found as every Rover 75 owner that doesn't have a car that resides at Gaydon, that steel pipework needs replacing from time to time, irrespective of the superiority their own maintenance regime


No one can accuse me of not being curious, yourself included Simon, as I bet even you are not this anal when it comes to checking for wear and tear, after renewing the front brake pipes on the ZT, I cut the corroded section from inside the wheel arch, a section which you advocate dressing up earlier on in this thread, and measured the wall thickness of the tube, and compared it to the other end of the same section of the pipe where it had been removed from the modulator.

The results were that of the original wall thickness of the tube had reduced by wastage to 70% of the original dimension, so less than 3/4,
Now while this may have provided a reasonably effective seal under normal braking conditions, what may have happened in an emergency braking scenario?

The problem being is simply, you cannot use NDT on brake pipes, and the last thing anyone wants is to hear of some unfortunate fellow member rear end another car when the pipework pops.

Now without exception, every single car I've encountered where it has been found necessary to replace the pipework where it is routed along the floorpan, the same pipe in section where it is routed along the rear chassis leg is similarly distressed, regardless of what you have to say on the matter.

So when you disagreed with dropping the tank was necessary when suggested by Andy, a job which in real life takes less than half an hour to complete in order to replace fully this pipework, you are showing yet again your disregard for others who may actually have a better grasp of the job in hand, based upon experience that includes more than your one sample vehicle.

Once again, you can read how to do a job many times in a book, you can theorise as much as you like, but experience is key, especially if you specialise in one type of vehicle.

Brian :D

B/Pipes
 

As the owner of a few Rovers of various types and have at some time replaced all of the Brake pipes, I take the view that to clean up old pipes is somewhat a lazey and foolish way of going about a saftey related items. Do the sensable thing and replace the lot, if not for your saftey but that of other road users.

You don’t need to drop the tank if you use copper pipe it will feed through with the tank in place.
If you intend dropping the fuel tank, be prepared to replace the retaining strap as it will snap, rubbish thin metal and a plastic tank.
For all the rest of the pipes I would recommend copper zinc alloy pipe 90/10 it lasts much longer than copper or steel.
As to the cost the hoses will set you back between £45 and £80 depending on the quality used. You will need a couple of rolls of brake pipe £20 and a handful of pipe ends £8 in steel or £25 if using brass.
Then it is up to you if you change them yourself or let the garage do it. If you are doing it your self you will need a pressure bleeder to get a nice firm pedal.
Hope this helps
Alan


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Where can i buy a new tank strap from anyone please?

Rimmers, Ebay, or maybe DMGRS? Not sure if they stock them.

None of the tanks straps I've had snap, but I don't live in Scotland where the roads are salted 11 months of the year :D

Anyway XPart's parent company is selling them on eBay LINK should you need one ;0

Brian :D

Thanks for the link, I'm a little surprised how much it is!

I shouldn't imagine you will need to buy one Richard, last year I replaced seven sets of front to rear pipes, all done properly and routed in the exact same position as they were originally fitted, and had no issues with the tank straps ;)

It's very easy to do it properly, even more so than doing half a job, and considerably neater too :cool:

The main advice is to run the fuel down in the tank, until at least you get the orange light on, it makes refitting it much easier when you are lying underneath the car, the other piece of advice is to open the bleed nipple to the NSR attach a pipe into a jar, then push the pedal to the floor.

Once you've done that, wedge the brake pedal to the floor, I use a piece of wood wedged between the pedal and the front of the drivers seat, with a folded over towel or similar to protect the seat, and you will find there will be minimal fluid loss while you have the pipework disconnected.

Have fun

Brian :D

Thanks Brian,

When I've done brake pipes on cars in the past I usually use the bit of wood on the brake pedal technique, as you say, loose less fluid and helps prevent air getting into the system and causing other issues.
I read a post on here a while ago with issues on the ABS pump after work had been carried out on the hydraulic system.

Very nice Stu :drool4:

Hi gain.
I thought i would give a quick update on events regarding my crusty brake pipes.
I took the car in this morning to get them replaced. The local garage are decent, and got them sorted out for £189..He showed me the old one's and they weren't a pretty picture. In fact as he was taking on off it disintegrate.. They were pretty close to failure whilst on the road by all accounts..
Whilst he had everything apart i also asked if he could clean up the rear callipers as one of them is slightly sticking. Its not to point where its dragging the car back but enough to be getting hot.
Unfortunately he couldn't free it and has suggested i replace them both. One for being border line seized whilst the other suffering a snapped bleed nipple that he did today. There only about £ 35/45 each so its probably prudent to do both as the car is a long term keeper.
Bearing in mind its 20 years old now and has seen a lot of bad weather over the years i can't complain.
I know people with cars less than half the age of mine and there plagued with expensive problems and look as rough as badgers behind.
It just goes to show how strong these cars really are with a little tlc compared to the modern offerings we have nowadays.
All the very best,
Johnny

Bigg Red do decent caliper refurbishment kits (pistons, seals, guide pins, etc) - http://www.biggred.co.uk/

Nope, the quality of the Bigg Red kits are rubbish, if you've overhauled your brakes with one, you will find that out soon enough :

Brian :D

Argh just did my rears on the 800 with them :mad:

What's wrong with them?

The rebuild kits I got (a few years ago now) had no flexibility to slide over the pistons. The ones I bought came with pistons, which seemed to be fine, so after tearing one, and thinking it was my fault, I ordered a pair from Brakes Int on eBay (as Bigg Red didnt have any listed without the pistons when I looked). When fitting them, whilst tight, they felt a hell of a lot more pliable, and whilst tight, went over the piston, and allowed full movement of the piston whilst fitted. The BR ones I doubt would have given the full movement.

Of course I could have been supplied the incorrect piston boots, but everything else fitted correctly, but the seals felt harder, almost like plastic rather than rubber (I know they wont be rubber).

This is what I've used on the rears (fronts still to go):

Springs - Brakes International BPF1097S
Pistons & seals - Bigg Red BRKP242S
Guide pins, sliders & end caps - Frentech S7022QP-2
Bleed nipples - Brakes International NIP2012L*
Calipers - original ATE (blasted, cleaned & painted)

(* Later replaced with Goodridge M8 Speed Bleeders)

Here's the equivalent piston from Brakes International - Budweg BCP3616.
And this is the equivalent seal kit from Brakes International - Budweg BCK3616.

The Bigg Red pistons and ring seals went in nicely and (greasy fingers aside) the boots went on without much fuss. Material-wise, I couldn't see any real difference between the old boots and the new boots except the ground-in dirt on the old ones. Having said that, I haven't road-tested the car yet (no back box!) so we'll see.


Websites

Brakes International - https://www.brakesint.co.uk/
Bigg Red - http://www.biggred.co.uk/
Frentech - https://www.frentech-uk.co.uk/

They all look familiar, to me. I didn't get as far as fitting them as the boot ripped with the second attempt seemingly the same. There was a night and day difference.between the brakes int and br ones. I could well have been given the 36mm boot, instead of the 40, but the piston was the correct 40mm within the kit, likewise the cylinder seal.was correct.

There was simply next to no pliance to allow it to slip over the piston, even with a pack of grease over it.

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If I've got the energy I'll get a pair of Brakesint kits when I do the front, then I'll whip the rear pads out and compare the boots. I didn't have the problems you had though - maybe Bigg Red have changed suppliers. :shrug:

Pic - rears with BR boots & pistons

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/for...708880fa28.jpg

That's the best shot I've got that shows the boots - I was getting bored with brake calipers by this stage. :D

I cannot say if they have or not, nor can I say they were the incorrect boots, as there are two types. 36 and 40mm that correspond to the pistons used.

Before building up the fronts, Brakes Int do the correct calipers new. A pair of front calipers, if I recall, were about £100 per pair, and £140 for the 190 versions.

this was one of mine (before I wiped off the grease lol)

https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/a...1&d=1580666006

The rubber crumbles away after about six months of use, they were assembled with Renolit Red rubber grease, nothing new there.

I had issues like this before with "Britpart" kits for the Freelander, substitute those with the original Lucas TRW components, and they are still operational fifteen years later.

I'd rather buy the cheap new calipers, or new old stock ones that pop up from time to time on eBay, than waste my time with rubbish that is not fit for purpose.

Brian :D

I'd say it's pretty unlikely that BR gave you 36mm boots by mistake when everything else in the kit was 40mm - the difference between a 36mm and a 40mm would be easy to spot if they were side by side.

I might fit new calipers on the front - it'll all depend on the money situation. Brakes Int 's front calipers for KV6 are £67 per side at the moment (FTE, Brake Engineering or Budweg) ex surcharge. XPart's exchange price for ATE rears was £115 per side when I checked so I expect the fronts would be a fair bit more.


I can change the rear boots easily enough when I get to the front end refurb (subframe, brakes, suspension all coming off for sorting out).

I did think about the size difference until I typed the message above, as at the time everything else was correct. What was obvious was a lack of a concertina effect, ie little movement to allow the piston to move and still seal. They were binned but would be happy to concede the incorrect seal supplied, but still would not have fitted them. The subsequent seals felt superior and allowed for full piston movement without pulling off it, so I was happy with them.

I had to get a new caliper (190 front) , and used brakes int. It was £79 via ebay with no surcharge nor exchange required. I didn't notice them recently, but could be worth messaging them via ebay to see if they can supply.

I do wish I had bought both new from.them though, as after buying used, refurbishing and blasting, it would have worked out similar if not the same price.

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