synergy 2 + pierburgh maf
 

I know this has been spoken about lot's of times but to put my mind at ease..I am about to buy a synergy2 is it a good idea to fit a pierburgh maf at the same time I have no idea if mine is 100% but car has done 77k and I'm thinking that for another £53 it would be a worth while job ,also plan to replace pcv with the BMW fit and forget item (11127799224)
Cheers Ian

Sounds a good idea to me! certainly the Pierburg maf is far cheaper then a new Bosch maf, and just to add with the Pierburg the Maf compensator on the synergy must be switched on. When that is done the it might be worth your while to fit an EGR bypass valve:D

There does seem to be recent information that the PB MAF is not a good replacement for the Bosch, but, I think BigRuss posted some part numbers referring to a newer version of the PB MAF that may be a better match.. :)

As for the EGR, just pull the vac pipe off, pinch the lil spigot closed with pliers, then pop the vac pipe back on, job done.. :D
...

Thanks Marc
EGR bypass already fitted,I have just ordered the Synergy 2 along with the BMW engine breather(pcv) so all I need to do is give europarts a call and get the Pierburgh Maf sent across to me.
Ian

SYNERGY 2 + Pierburgh?
 

If you can afford it I suppose you might as well buy the Pierburgh but, the Synergy 2 has maf compensation built in so you have 3 levels available if your Bosch maf is below spec before you would need a new one. I have been using a Pierburgh for three years and the car performs very well!

You can get the genuine Bosch MAF for £80 plus delivery, so why would you fit a part not designed for the car???

http://www.worldcarparts.co.uk/Defau...&ProductID=606

A few are now reporting the PB MAF as not lasting any longer than the Bosch, and also that performance above 3k rpm is not what it should be.

Chris

Don't assume your Bosch maf is shot there's every chance that it isn't and may only require the mafam of the Synergy to work within limits.

There is a Pierburg that is listed as a direct replacement for our cars although a few reports say it isn't suitable dispite this.

Also it's more expensive than a brand new Bosch one from world car parts so why bother.

Since the Bosch maf is now available at a more affordable price IMHO for the little extra cost it's far better to fit the original.


Russ

Thanks Russ I have had confirmation from Roverron that I probably won't need to change the Maf so I'll see how it goes when fitted,Just fitting a EGR bypass has transformed the car so looking forward to synergy 2 + de-cat.
Cheers Ian

Pierburgh do NOT make a repalcement for the Bosch one used on this engine.
You can check their website.
They DO now make one for the 25/45/Zr/ZS and we stock this - its half the price of a Bosch one £130.

I am surprised about the comments over the Pierbugh maf. Its surprising since I've never had any until recently, despite selling them with the Synergy 2 for almost 5 years. Must be the vocal minority...

A genuine Bosch maf in an unopened Bosch box is over £200 - LR dealers charge £230 + vat.
Anything selling for £80 is suspect - please believe me I've heard it all many many times. As the old saying goes - if it sounds too good to be true, it will be. Same comments apply to the clone & Xpart mafs. (I believe these now just have a 3month warranty which speaks volumes...)

Please phone your nearest Bosch agent (see yell.com) and check the true price.

One factor in maf longevity could be oil contamination, This will void the warranty and is most likley due to a clogged pcv valve and / or filthy air filter.

I recommedn fitting the BMW pcv valve which doesn't have the felt filter.
Ron

I do appreciate that you have done a great deal to assist CDT(i) owners in improving the performance of their cars, indeed I have a synergy 2, and it is a wonderful piece of kit but surely you must agree fitting the correct part is always preferable.

I have no problem with owners fitting the oem part, but £80 will not buy you one.

Bosch's website warns about counterfeit parts....

The problem with them is that you cannot rely on them working exactly as the Bosch one does nor being as reliable. So if you fit one and the performance is still not right, you will be inclined to look for another cause (eg the Synergy etc). For this reason I also do not recommend any other mafs.

I'd more than happy to sell only Synergy 1s and the Bosch maf if I could get them for £40 (the price the seller of the £80 ones will be paying for them).
Indeed anyone is welcome to buy a Synergy 1 for £149 instead of a Synergy 2 and sort out their own maf problems. Just do this before you fit the Synergy please!

So the reason for the Synergy 2 and Pierburgh is that together these cost about the same as a genuine Bosch one (which incidentally is only supplied in the housing).

I will contact my supplier tomorrow and ask for a price from Bosch of the sensor only and see what they come back with but don't hold your breath - I was quoted £135 for 10off four years ago (in the housing).

Ron

Those copy parts look so convincing but will fail very quickly and ends up being a false economy. I have been searching the site here to see how to change the MAF or where it is. I have a 75 Haynes manual and the 47R workshop manual and will look in there. Yesterday the 75 had a problem pulling off and it took an age to pick up power. The fuel rail and pressure sensor was recently replaced at 102K ..of course it might not be the MAF

I have seen how to carry out the test but am not sure how to disconnect it.

thanks

I have just found it in the 'how to' section' in the how to clean the maf sensor. :}

Ron,
You have clearly said that you believe these Bosch MAF sensors are fake, but the seller has clearly said that they are original.
http://www.worldcarparts.co.uk/Defau...&ProductID=606
And from the sellers description they clearly define OE and aftermarket.

I really dont see that anybody could doubt their integrity without evidence. (unless they had a commercial interest in trying to deter people from using them)
Matt

The EGR will make a difference, but not a vaste difference unless it is choked up. I would suggest cleaning up the one you have and blanking the vacuum pipe is as good as a bypass type - I noticed no difference between the OEM one and a bypassed one.

My MAF wasn't suspect and my car had 97K under its belt when I fitted the S2, but I gave it a clean anyway, but no dirt/oil came off. I actually ran some diagnostics tests on my MAF and posted the results for comment a while back - no one commented on the figures I obtained, but you are welcome to check your figures against mine. My figures definately proved my MAF was responding to variations in flow, but with nothing to compare the figures to....

My supplier (a major parts stockist) replied to my forwarding him the link...

"It would appear the sensor is either a cheap copy or Meat and Doria as they are the only one doing them, check on the full bosch unit and they are £120 +vat"

Eurocarparts sell them retail at £187 which is the cheapest i've seen them.
So since Bosch don't supply the sensor separately, where do they come from?

Italian company Meat & Doria do make a sensor compatble with the Bosch one but its not obviously labelled as Bosch. I've no experience of these one so can't comment on them.

I have no commercial interest - what profit is made from Pierburgh maf sales is irrelevant - I only stock them to make it easy for customers and my prices are higher because my warranty is better. (I don't make you wait weeks with no maf whilst your faulty one is tested)
In fact Pierburgh now make one for the L series Rovers & MGs and we stock these as it saves us making Mafams. If and when they make one for the 75/ZT/TD4, I'll be happy to stock it and sell Synergy 1s instead.

Ron

I ordered a MAF for my ZT from World Car Parts in Feb 2010.

All I am posting are the facts of the transaction, in no way is there any inferance that what was supplied what not a genuine part.

1. The MAF arrived in a box branded Meat & Doria
2. The MAF itself was clearly marked as bosch and looked identical to the original one
3. The MAF would appear to have suffered degration as I have had to switch the MAF compensation part of my synergy 2 back on at the highest setting (range 7 to 9 power ON MAF ON). Millage covered since fitment would have been around 10,000 miles.

I have contacted World Car Parts regarding the warrenty however they require a garage report to say its that the part definatly has a fault, as we know MAF degredation does not appear as a fault code so im stuck.

As stated at the beginning all I am posting are the facts regarding my experiance with this part.

Justin

Might it be worth someone drawing WCP's attention to the postings on the subject?

So is your supplier saying he can supply genuine Bosch at £120 + VAT??

Chris

No, he's saying he'll supply me!

I would charge the same as Eurocarparts.

It will be genuine Bosch though.

Still cheaper to use a Pierburgh and Synergy 2 (£262), than a Bosch and Synergy 1. (£340)
Not to mention that when the Bosch one fails out of warranty its £119 more than another Pierburgh. (£68)

Ron

PS MAtt1960 must fall for all the email scams if he believes every 'its too good to be true' email and website blurb!

If you end up having to buy a new one, why not send the failed item to BOSCH for their opinion?

My advice is to question why a Bosch part is delivered in a non Bosch box, which is not sealed.

I would also carefully examine for signs of screw marks around the fixing holes, dirt on the 'o' ring and sensor element and possible signs that the panel embossed with part numbers and Bosch's name has been replaced.

caveat emptor

Ron

Cheap Bosch MAF is for VW
 

I found this informative piece on an American Land Rover forum. Seems to go a long way to explaining the price of this particular part. I understand from elswhere that MEAT & DORIA buy huge bulk quantities and do their own (negligible) packaging.

http://www.lrrforums.com/showthread.php?t=15461&page=2

Thanks Harry - A good idea. I have just ordered a Bosch MAF from a different supplier at £140.00, should arrive today.

Justin

I like to think of myself as a skeptic too, but I believe a few have bought this sensor from this company and confirmed that the sensor has Bosch clearly printed on it.
From what I have read I dont think the MEAT and DORIA ones do. So if this is the case, what exactly are we accusing this company of?, because if I had bought a unit that was clearly a fake, I would have no hesitation to contact trading standards.
The only real question I have that may stop me buying from them, if I needed to, is that the sensor they supply is an 029, as the 032 is a cheaper substitute (because of a vw law suit against Bosch because of failures of the sensor, and not because its very different), and apparantly runs 4% richer. I dont know whether this would make any difference to the running of our cars?
Matt

There's something about this site (worldcarparts) that I don't trust.
The fact that they sell a part advertised as an 029, but send out an 032 which is a VW part, just isn't on - and also illegal as they are wrongly advertising the part.
It does have Bosch stamped on it, because it is a genuine Bosch - but it's a Bosch for a VW not the M47r.

I don't know about the full sensor in it's housing that they sell - but it would seem a good way to make it more convincing would be to sell it at that higher price... at that price it must be genuine etc!

I was offered a Rolex submariner in Thailand last year for £40 that said Rolex on it and came with all the paperwork too. I decided to doubt their integrity.
Chinese companies will copy exactly any product including part no.s. You will only know the difference 6 months down the line. Or in the case of the Rolex
[when you forget to take it off in the shower] :D

Yes, I understand the concerns.
And if they are sending out a different part than advertised, then that is wholly wrong and should be put right. But this is very different to accusing them of supplying fake parts, which has not been proved yet so far.

But my understanding of the situation is that VW took bosch to court over inflating the price of a part that had a high failure rate and Bosch reduced the price of the 032 because of this. This part is almost the same as the 029 but runs 4% richer, but can be bought below £80.
I assume that Bosch have not reduced the 029 as they have not been forced to yet, but maybe they have?

I will email worldcarparts to confirm which sensor they are sending out in case of a mistake by them, and let the forum know.

But even if the 032 were available at £80, perhaps Ron could tell us whether this part running 4% richer could be used without problem in our cars.

Matt

There is another MAF available on Ebay. Don't know how to do a direct link but the item no. is 390244712666. Perhaps someone could put up the direct link. This is described as new and genuine Bosch. Seller must have many available, as it is repeat listed. I have 'won' one of these for £49.99 and have it in my possession, but not yet fitted. I can confirm that it is the entire unit, housing and sensor. It is clearly marked Bosch and interestingly has the the BMW roundel near the serial no. Serial no. is 0928 400 357, which I believe is correct. I have not opened the housing, but on the sensor I can just make out another Bosch sign, plus 'Made in Germany' and FOOC 2G2 029 serial no. Again I think this is right for our cars. It was supplied in a reused cardboard box, so there must be a doubt about its provenance. but it certainly looks genuine. Hope to have this fitted on a forthcoming trip to that well known Welsh chap and will report back in due course. On the face of it, this looks a bargain....
Anyone else had one of these ?

Kevin

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

On the face of it, it does! The supplier bills themselves as a "spares and salvage" business

Just a quick update,
I have had a reply back from World Car Parts (WCP) this morning. They have confirmed that the part they send is the 2032 sensor and not the 2029. This is much as I thought.
I have replied to them that IMO the advert is misleading.
However they have given an assurance that the parts are completely compatable.
This compatability seems to be confirmed with evidence from at least one member here (Rammie) who bought one in the spring from them and was happy with the performance.
On the internet, I found other evidence that BMW owners were also using this cheaper alternative with good results. But our mapping is different to theirs.
I will try to contact Bosch for confirmation as to the specification differences.
However, my initial conclusion is that the parts they are supplying are not fake, but genuine Bosch, but the part numbers are not exactly as described IMO.
Matt

029 is the correct part, 032 isn't. Some people in the trade seem to think it doesn't make a lot of difference so long as the result is an improvement on a very poor maf....
I've tried many different ones in my 75, including BMW and VAG (055, 062, Pierburgh 090 etc) and though the car was driveable, it either smoked, ran out steam well before the red line or was flat until the Synergy2's maf compensator was switched on.

WCP are incorrect to say the 029 and 032 are intechangeable.

If any old maf worked, why do Bosch make so many? Because they are all calibrated differently...
Ron

As I thought too! But the description is more than misleading - it's totally wrong. It specifically states that the part you receive is the 029!

Exactly! So is there anywhere reputable that sells just the 029 sensor (without housing) at a 'reasonable' price?

P

Yes, I bought one a while back as a spare. Put it into my car when I bought it and then left it in - it's done about 25,000 miles and has behaved exactly the same as my original MAF (which was absolutely fine). When I received it I checked for any signs that it might be used and was totally convinced it was new. Also, asked the seller where it came from and was told it was dealers ex stock.

Item number 390244712666

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

Tommy

Officially the 029 isn't available other than in the housing so dealers cannot have surplus stock either.
I still suspect that the ones on ebay are warranty returns that have been removed from the housing.

(Customer gets new housing and his old maf cleaned up and fitted to the new housing, employee keeps new maf and flogs on ebay, old housing goes in bin ... is one possible scenario: another is, customers old maf is cleaned up and flogged on ebay..)

In the end, fit whatever maf you want and if you are happy with the results (& warranty procedure if it goes wrong) that's fine. (Turn off or remove any tuning product so make sure there's no low rev flatness, flat spots, smoke or poor mpg). But you know my recommendations... I wish I had a £ for every time I've thought to myself "told you so"!

Cynical old Ron

I removed my WCP MAF today and it is definatly a 032.

Yesterday I received a new MAF from http://www.airmassmeters.com/

It came in a sealed Bosch box and the part was the housing and the sensor which is marked 029. I paid £140.00 including VAT and 24 hour Postage.

Just to make sure that there is a reduced chance of contamination of the new MAF im going to give the air filter unit a good clean out.

If it wasn't for this dammed rain it would be fitted by now!

Justin

I agree with Ron, that it would appear that at present the 029 sensor is not available on its own and only in a housing.
However I will let the forum know if I get a reply from Bosch as to the actual specification differences between the two.
Initially, there seems to be a very slight moulding difference where the connector goes in.

It would appear from my research that the only reason for the 032 sensor being singly available and much cheaper than the 029 is because of a VW lawsuit.
I wonder why bmw have not gone down the same route with the 029, which seems to suffer the same failure rate.

Matt

Just an update, Bosch would not release any specifications for the sensor, as they would not wish this to be copied.
They were quite helpful with regard to the problem with longtivity of our sensor, and they seemed to think that part of the highish failure rate was to do with dirt on the sensor which effected the voltage readings.
He said that in his opinion the higher failure vehicles were those with PCV's before the sensor, as a film will more likely be formed on the sensor.
Seems a reasonable explanation to me.
So he would not comment as to whether the 032 would be an adequate replacement for the 029, and advised getting the correct unit with housing.
So looks like £140 rather than £80.
I am still waiting for WCP to reply to my accusation of misleading advertising.
Matt

Well done that man! Good info there. :)


P

Hi Ron,

Where do you source yours from? Clearly not from ebay?

I`ve just received an 032 sensor from WCP this morning, unfortunately to then see this thread, before i call them and demand they reimburse me was this something they are willing to do and did they reimburse return postage?

I get mine from GSF and you are quite welcome to go behind my back !! (they have many local branches - check theior website for details)

I buy in quantity so will pay less than their one-off price. (I hope!)

They stock Pierburgh and Bosch parts.

It doesn't surprise me that Bosch won't give anything away, although any organisation wanting to copy their sensors need only buy one and then they can determine the calibration for themselves. However they ought to have at least stated that the 029 and 032 are, or are not, interchangeable.
The plug retaining mechanism differs though the shape is the same, and its highly unlikely a sensor for a VAG engine will be correct, especially as not even a BMW maf is suitable for the 75/ZT/TD4.

As for contamination, Pierburgh will void the warranty on any sensor showing signs of this and Bosch will probably do the same and it will also be used by less scrupulous companies to avoid all warranty claims.

It seems it is indeed a common problem, especially on high mileage engines where crankcase fumes have increased due to bore & piston ring wear. I note that K&N do not now preoil their air filters - after spending years denying the oiling caused any issues...

Then there's the contamination from a dirty airflter.

Ron

Thanks for this info Ron. I was trying to get a Pierburg MAF from the local Merc garage, but I will pop to GSF instead.

Going to pop to BMW and pick up a PCV too.

As Bosch seemed to indicate the pcv might be an issue regarding contamination of the maf, would it be better to have the original 'toilet roll' filter or the newer filterless one?

Bosch also said to me that the specification is to 4 digits whatever that means.

With regard the 032 and 029. From reading through loads of mainly bmw threads, they is general concensus that the 032 is a very good match for the 029 and most fit one, and performance is the same.
But I understand our mapping will be quite different.

I think the important questions would be,
would the 032 be a much nearer match than the pierburg, which needs additional compensation to work in our car?
If the 032 runs approx 4% richer, then after some contamination which will eventually happen, I believe the maf makes the engine run leaner, so at some stage, will this maf be in perfect spec?
And, how much difference does 4% make anyway?, and would this be within the running tolerance of the 029 maf?, and would the engine adjust for this 4% over time?

Lots of questions that I am unable to answer.

Perhaps Ron could?

Matt

£120 + VAT to you - £187 to us incl VAT (£159.15 ex VAT)

By my maths that's a very nice profit margin of (very close to) 33% Ron.

Nice work if you can get it.

Indignation misdirected?
 

Everyone needs to make a profit and, once handling costs and the like are taken into account, I think you're being a little unfair.

I am unhappy about the other links in the chain. I find it inexcusable that:
1) With so many of these parts, it seems impossible to obtain the bit that works without a superfluous but expensive bit that often isn't needed and;
2) If a manufacturer and distributor can make and market a particular part at a particular price (assuming it's not a loss-leader) there is no possible justification for pricing an almost identical part 2 to 3 times higher.

You forget the warranty & after sales service.

I do not leave you without a maf whilst yours is sent off for testing or ask you to pay for an engineers report to prove its faulty...

So you may pay more but you get something back in return.

Feel free to take your business elsewhere.

No pleasing some folk.

Ron