Oh jeez, where do i start?
 

I had quite a bit of work done to my Rover 75. Picked her up today, and I'm unhappy. (1) I can hear a new sound - a very irritating ticking like tappets. Of course the service manager can't hear it! I had new cambelt put in, water pump, spark plugs, thermostat pipe assembly-coolant, one ignition coil, change of oil.

All of the above because there was a coolant leak from the "in V thermostat pipes", a misfire on one cylinder, 18 yr old cambelt noisy from suspected tensioners.

I have very good hearing, and know the sounds of both my cars. (2) Another problem I've just found, which is the cooling fan comes on after a very short journey and stays on and on. Moreover, when I switch off the car while fan is running, it should continue running but it does not. It switches off with the car!

(3) Vis valves noisy on inlet manifold, but garage could not obtain replacement. I'm acquainted with that sound, and it is NOT this new tapping sound that I now have. Could it be the SOLENOID VALVE on the rear of the upper inlet manifold?

I told Kingsburys that I would monitor the car over the weekend. Hope to take her back on Tuesday, but in the meantime any suggestions would be gratefully received so that I can parlez with the garage (which is a former Rover-approved one).

THIS is precisely why I hate having anything done to my car - because something changes.

Your fan running sounds like one of the speeds has failed, does it have a resistor fitted at about the 2 o'clock position? Or no resistor. Vis motors, speak to Dave (stocktake)

Sent from my SM-A326B using Tapatalk

Thanks for that. Do you think that having all that work done dislodged something and caused it to fail? Where is Dave?

Sounds to me like you have an airlock that making the cooling system switch on your hi speed fan.

The ticking could be a noisy tappet, or a Vis motor malfunction, if not a vis then id suggest an engine flush in case a tappet has caught some muck during the work.

Trikey - But the fan should stay on surely after car is switched off, airlock or not?

The Vis valves on inlet manifold are noisy, but what I'm speaking of is a completely new sound.

not unless the car has gone onto overheat, normally the low speed fan will kick in and control the temperature, if the high speed is on after you turn off the engine you have an issue, i will bet its a water issue seeing as you have had the system drained and refilled.

Best bet is to drain and refill according to the MGR procedure, run up to temp and check all hoses and radiator are up to the correct temperature, let it cool down, top up as neccessary, then see if the issue persists.

In my early pre-forum days it was a Rover dealership "expert" told me that when my car was cutting out on sharpish right hand bends, I needed to renew both the in tank and under bonnet pumps. I didn't believe them and a couple of days later the car was recovered to another dealer, who without even seeing the car, correctly diagnosed a flooded ECU.

TC Ensure the aircon system isn't tripping on the low speed fan by pressing the Econ button before driving off. Aircon cooling behaves as you describe. It usually starts the fan a few seconds after ignition on, but in the current cold weather, it may not start immediately.

If the fan is actually tripping on to cool the engine, check the coolant temperature by running the Trip Screen Diagnostic mode (Test 7) while driving. More info here: https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/for...ad.php?t=55585
I believe the V6 will trip the cooling fan on when the coolant goes above 100°C.



TC

Hello Lida,

I am very interested in your thread because (1) I know Kingsbury's well, (2) I have a V6 like yours and (3) I recognise all the work you've paid for as I've done it myself! :D

I could write a lengthy post with lots of analysis and recommendations but that wouldn't help with your forthcoming negotiations at Kingsbury's. I'd be happy to have a chat with you on the phone this weekend if you'd like to. I'm also not far from Hounslow ... ;)

Send me a PM and I'll be happy to assist.

Simon

Latest news
 

Lida has made contact and she's bringing her V6 tourer over to me tomorrow for an inspection and some tests which should result in a discussion on the best way forward.

Simon

Trikey,

You're a doll! I met with one of the club's members (SD1Too) today He checked a number of things, and Yes it does appear to be an airlock in the cooling system. SD1Too used the Trip Screen Diagnostics that T-Cut spoke of above, and deduced that even in this cold weather, cooling of engine is not efficient. My Rover's temperature fluctuated, the highest being 105. After allowing car to cool and removing rad cap, there was fizzing and overflow of coolant.

Garage clearly did not follow correct procedure, probably desperate to get payment and send me on my way.

I will make contact with the blighters tomorrow.

Yesterday's assessment in detail
 

It was a pleasure to meet Lida yesterday. We collected a wealth of evidence suggesting that the ex-MG Rover main dealer had simply filled the cooling system without following any of the official bleeding procedure thereby creating an airlock. The plan is that I will rectify that tomorrow.

In replacing the thermostat and plastic coolant pipes the dealer also failed to set the serrated clips correctly thereby setting the stage for a further coolant leak in future. I managed a partial improvement within the restricted access.

The new sound which Lida reported is a rattling power valve linkage in the manifold chamber. We are in the process of seeking a replacement.

Questions raised in previous posts

Suzublu; the fan is a 3 speeder and low speed is working correctly. I tested the VIS power valves actuator and it's also working.

Trikey; the fan didn't progress beyond low speed but it was running far more frequently than normal for an ambient temperature below 10˚C.
The tappets were not noisy.

T-Cut; the owner prefers to have the heating, ventilation and AC system turned off completely so fan operation was restricted to coolant temperature.

Simon

As an addendum to SD1too's post and mine of yesterday, I have now spoken to Kingsbury on the phone. I was told that one of the technicians would phone me back, and someone did - though not sure he is a tech. He seemed to have difficulty in understanding what I was saying to him, which is:

"I noted from mileage recorded that you did not road-test my Rover, and as the job involved a full refill of coolant I decided to check something myself. I tapped into the onboard Instrument Pack Diagnostics and was able to observe the actual coolant temperature in degrees Celsius whilst driving. Temp was erratic – for example, jumping rapidly from 97 to 101. It reached 106, which it should not do especially in this cold weather. I think there may well be an airlock in the cooling system. This happens when MG Rover procedure is not followed."

This is what I was told. I am paraphrasing. (I welcome your comments about what garage told me).

Garage: You have brand new thermostat, pump and pipework connected to other parts which are 18 yrs old, and there is a period of adjustment best achieved by using the car regularly.


Me: Parts are inanimate objects, they are not humans that need time to get used to each other. I've never heard of such a thing. If that was so no one would have parts changed.

Garage: If your car was 5 years old then there is no stress on the old parts by the new ones, but your car is 18.


Me: I'm sorry, but I do not believe that. Why did she reach 106 temp? It suggests to me a stop-go circulation.

Garage: What do you mean 106 ....

Me: I told you right at the beginning of this call, that temp was erratic and reached a high temp it should not have. If we were in summer, it would have been higher than 106.

Garage: The cooling fan would come on ....


Me: I know that! I'm telling you 2 things and you're not listening!
The fan should not activate on such a short journey and with outside temperature being 7 C. What has caused the 106 C temp, do you know? There is a mandatory procedure when refilling the cooling system of a V6 from scratch. I think that is the bit that you missed out. To avoid air getting in, the expansion tank needs to be lifted up some 5 inches.
[/I]

Garage: That tank is fixed into the car.

Me: As far as I know, a strap retains that tank. Once unstrapped, the expansion tank can be lifted slightly.
=====================

That's the level of comprehension. The technician who worked on my car is back tomorrow. Apparently he spent 3 days on it, 5 hrs each day.

My plan is to phone again tomorrow and ask to speak to the actual chap who worked on the car. I am curious to find out whether he knows about the onboard diagnosis facility, which T-Cut has written about.

Love threads like this, especially when the owner, armed with the expert knowledge provided by people who actually know what they're talking about, stick it to the garages who try it on, :duh:
Even more sweet, is if the owner is female, which I presume, Lida is, and can report to the so called "Technicians" the correct info.:D:bowdown:
Brilliant:D Well done Simon et al:cool:

Please Please keep us informed, I love threads like this..:D

Number 6 and Suzublu: Is there any credence, in this case, to new parts needing to be bedded in, which is what the garage is saying?

As a person who used to work for MGR I can say what a load of rubbish they are telling you

Could anyone print the page, pages from the Rave manual about the correct procedure, for lida to present to the garage, first person she spoke to and the ' mechanic ' who did the job.


A video of their faces as they read them would be interesting.

I've done that today Bill. :D

Simon

I'm not one to brag but.................. great minds and all that. ;):}

:wot:

That was one of the pieces of evidence I noted David. You're right, it's still nicely coated in light rust. ;)

Simon

Simon, I did that thermostat replacement job a few months ago and think (hope!) I put the clips the correct way up. I may be missing something very obvious, but do you know the reason for having the clips a particular way up though? It wasn't clear to me how they function or why it would matter.
Michael.

A disappointing day
 

There seems to be more to this car than meets the eye. The amount of coolant drained (5 litres) was short of the capacity (7.2 litres). Following the bleeding procedure the expansion tank filled up much earlier than the other KV6s I've worked on, including my own.

The initial test. drive was encouraging but now we're back to square one; rapidly varying temperature readings (for example 97 to 102 in two seconds) and one instance of 111˚ yet the top radiator hose doesn't reflect this and the bottom radiator hose is tepid.

I think there's still an air lock and this car has the modified oil cooler circuit. I intend to drain that tomorrow as this worked on another member's car last summer.

Simon

Spent yesterday, Tuesday, with Simon. After a sterling job the same problem remained – erratic coolant temperature, rising or falling in milliseconds. The two radiator hoses remain warm and touchable, when in fact they should be scorching.

If we cannot solve the issue today, then I will take my Rover back to the garage to establish my legal situation. I need to allow them to see the problem in action.

I later realised what they meant by having kept an eye on the temp/fan after the works and before I collected the car last week. I think they checked the temp gauge on the dash and saw that it did not change at all. I did explain to them that a peculiarity of the V6 is that the temp gauge needle will not fluctuate. The first time a driver without experience of this car will know there is a problem is when that needle zooms up towards the red mark.

I think that's why they were so shocked when I said that I was observing the cooling system temperature via the onboard diagnostic that T-Cut and others have spoken of.

Hi Lida just a thought does the heater get hot in the car when on high and stay hot with the car ticking over?

I checked that Dave and yes it does.

Simon

Hi Simon.
Did you take the car for a run get it up to thermostat opening temp, then switch the heating on to highest temp it can go and have the internal fan blowing as hard as it can? try that and see if the air block goes.

Today I drained the cooling system once more but this time I included the oil cooler hoses (the later connections in the heater return to cylinder head circuit). It made no difference.

The abnormal behaviour is as follows:

• Following bleeding, when the engine is started the level in the expansion tank does not drop to allow coolant to be added as described in RAVE.
• When the expansion tank cap is refitted, the temperature quickly climbs to 100˚ which is unusual at idle in Spring temperatures.
• The slow speed fan is unable to cool the engine. It remained at 100˚ even increasing to 101˚.
• When the engine speed is raised to 2,000 rpm the temperature drops quickly to 95˚. Release the accelerator and it climbs equally quickly back up to 100˚.
• The bottom radiator hose remains tepid throughout.

The main dealer had renewed the thermostat housing invoicing specifically for the MGR part number. The above evidence suggests to me that this new thermostat is opening only partially, i.e. it's faulty.

Lida's problem is that from her conversations with the dealer, it is clear that they have scant knowledge of how the KV6 cooling system works. They believe that yesterday's driving temperature of 106˚ with the fan running is normal (my 75 in identical circumstances reads 91˚). :rolleyes: There is little chance that the garage will agree to change Lida's thermostat again.

Simon

PS Thanks Steve (Arctic) for your question. Yes, during yesterday's test drive we did set the heater to 'Hi' with the blower at full blast but it did not change the temperature reading.

If it is the later oil cooler bypass it the try it again the do block causing the problem you have or use a laser thermometer and check hoses etc and pinpoint any cold areas

Ps I have fitted a few oil coolers for ver similar problems but bypass it and see what happens

Dave

After another heroic effort by Simon, the problem remains. I always did suspect the stat and conveyed that to Simon. The reason being it is the only new part which could affect temperature.

Thanks for the suggestion Dave but since the later oil cooler is in the heater return circuit a blockage could not cause the flow through the radiator to be affected.

The crucial piece of evidence is that the bottom radiator hose is tepid.

Simon

That would be my next move

Sorry Simon but I have been there before bypass the cooler and see what results you get :} Also if it was ok before a new thermostat then that is the problem

I emailed a letter to the garage and received a call back. Service Manager was VERY aggressive and said we were just going round in circles "You either monitor the car or bring it back."

I said: But I HAVE BEEN monitoring her for a week as your original suggestion, and I've now sent you my observations.

When I pointed out that both radiator hoses are tepid, but should be hot, he replied: "Would you prefer them to be hot then?"

I'm on shaky ground here because I do not have tech knowledge, only what V6 owners have told me. So I cannot confidently parlez with the garage. It's clear to me that they use verbal aggression to encourage the customer to go away. It must be the culture they encourage. Even with staff turnover over the years this behaviour continues towards customers.

This is just an accidental mistake. From our full conversation yesterday Lida knows that only the bottom radiator hose is tepid. The top hose is reasonably hot, as would be expected.

Simon

Hi Lida.
Phone again and say you have taken some advice, and the advice points to some sort of blockage, or air lock, even that the thermostat may not be opening as it should, therefore yes i will take you upon your offer to bring the car back to you so you can rectify/correct any mistake that may have been made initially, when the service was carried out, so yes please take the car back so you can make sure the coolant runs at proper temperature, ie gets to 100c then the low speed fan will kick in and bring it down 91c then the car repeats this cycle over and over if stuck in traffic and would not over heat.

ARCTIC. That's what I have done, taking her back on Tuesday 12th. Last week I suggested to them it may be an airlock in the coolant which they dismissed. And today I suggested a dodgy thermostat which caused more hostility from the service manager.

I will PM to you the letter I emailed them today.

They seem to be sticking by the mantra that the fan will come on when it needs to, despite my giving them precise notes. I told the manager that I do not consider it normal behaviour for the first fan speed to come on after just ONE MILE at 100 c in this cool weather.

Temp rises to 106c, which increases fan speed and this will reduce the temp, sometimes to 95c, other times to 100 c - so the fan remains on but slower. I should not be driving 2½ miles to my Tesco on fan - it's ridiculous. Perhaps if I was doing the Morocco Overland Rally, then Yes.

Heater is working fine.

I returned my Rover to the garage this morning following change of water pump, thermostat, new coolant, cam belt. Running far too hot, which she never did before.

Service manager said that new parts installed 2 weeks ago will have made the car run more efficiently! That rather depends on his definition.

She’s going back on T4. He dismissed the car’s own diagnostics which I have been monitoring for 5 days, and which I had typed out for him.

He did confirm that the vacuum method/bleeding had been used when filling with coolant.

I did remind him that as Rover has been out of business since 2007, the software in his T4 is the same as the diagnostic tool in my car, there have been no updates.

He did not want to take my notes on temps reached over the last week.

I tried to impress upon him that it is NOT normal to drive local distances on FAN.

This morning on my way to them, even though fan had brought temp down to 98 from 102, it did not switch off.

(I arrived just before 10 am and he bitchily told me that the mechanic had been waiting for me since 9 am). Yeah, right.

Hi Lida.
Do let us know the outcome did they say how long they would need the car for to check and rectify the problem, even if they do that ? i have a feeling you may be sending your car to one of the boys on here Trikey or Dave.

Fingers crossed for you.

It's OK Steve, I live only a few miles from Lida and, as you'll have seen from previous posts, it's all in hand and a diagnosis has been reached. What Lida is doing today is giving the garage the opportunity to put right what they have messed up just in case she decides to take her complaint further.

Stand by for further developments! :}

Simon

It's like a soap opera.
Can't wait for tomorrow's episode.
Good luck!

I've just received an update from Lida. The ex-MG Rover main dealer has had her car since 10 am for investigation. After repeatedly telling her that the radiator fan is working correctly (she told them that but they didn't want to listen) they're now saying that she needs a new coolant temperature sensor and she must pay for it. :duh:

I understand that she did not authorise this work and is on her way to collect the car. I have proposed the only solution and she is considering it. As you can imagine, all this nonsense is taking its toll.

Simon

Thanks for the vote of confidence Arctic I'm sure If either myself or Trikey are required to sort this then we can :}

Sounds to me like there is an airlock somewhere!

That was my original thought too Andy but the garage's alleged vacuum fill plus two sessions of mine have not resulted in any improvement.
As said earlier, I suspect a faulty thermostat since the engine overheats mildly and the bottom radiator hose is tepid.

Simon

In fact, Simon, my hair is falling out! lol Has been since early March, which may be due to the spell in hospital that I had in January.

Unfortunately the forum does not allow document attachments, so I have typed up what happened today at the garage.

Carried out road test.
Fans cutting in correctly.
T4 test failed due to satnav not working and blocking straight diagnostic test.
Faults with satnav appear to be due to water ingress.
Water ingress was previously noted in 2016 but customer opted not to have work carried out. *
Carried out test to individual fan speed modes, all functioning and passing test.
Carried out Instrument Pack test. Coolant temp from I.P. read 94 C but test engine temp reading was 83 C. Suspect coolant temp sensor.
Rechecked fault codes, non present. Suspect temp sensor has worn.
Checked top and bottom hoses, both hot. Thermostat working correctly.
Internal temp gauge did not go to red, stays in middle of gauge showing that vehicle is not overheating.
Carried out probe test to coolant once reservoir had cooled enough to open.
Temp showing a 20 degree difference between what is being read on I.P. which confirms there is fault with current temp sensor.
Cutomer decided not to have any further work carried out on the vehicle.
No charge for rechecking work on vehicle.
=============================

* That was water ingress in the driver’s well. Garage rolled back carpet and let that area successfully dry out.
I removed Satnav 6 yrs ago when it was causing a parasitic drain.

What service manager is saying, therefore, is if the I.P shows a temp of 100 C, that is wrong due to faulty sensor. He is saying temp is actually 80 C. If that were true, then at 80 the car is not even at best operating temperature.

All along the way, I have been pointing out that both radiator hoses should be hot, surely. Service manager has said "Why would you want them to be hot?"

A feasible diagnoses which would cause the issues you describe as would cut your fan in before your car reaches operating temperature and explain why your bottom hose is tepid
Temperatures can easily checked by using a infra red thermometer and would confirm temperatures around the system and are a useful addition to any toolbox .
https://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d03...t=Thermometers

With the above diagnoses you have to now try a temperature sender unit and I'm sure Simon will help source and fit one

Hello Steve,

As you can see the garage removed the expansion tank cap and directly measured the temperature of the coolant within. It was lower than the reading from the car's coolant temperature sensor (CTS) which is mounted at the hottest point in the block. From this the garage concluded that the CTS is over-reading.

As the expansion tank is not positioned in the flow of coolant (it is essentially a reservoir) of course it will be cooler than the engine block. This can be verified by touching the expansion tank and the top radiator hose of a running engine and noting the difference.

An over-reading CTS would not cause the fan to fail to reduce the coolant temperature which is what is happening.

Simon

I would avoid the garage! If they don’t know how to get into the engine management using T4 (avoiding the other ecus) then they don’t know much about our cars!

Lida

You could bring the car to myself or Trikey to see what is going on with it, if it turns out to be the thermostat then it is not a big job to change while you wait

Dave

Has the garage fitted any parts that now would appear to have not been needed? that they can't seem to use the correct T4 software, would indicate they did not diagnose the problem correctly, i would not allow them to do any further work on the car, and take advise from those on here that do have experience of the type of engine, If the thermostat is thoughgt to be at fault, it might be as good to change it, then see if the problem persists, if its ok, then you know that was the problem, if it still plays up, at least you know you can strike the thermostat out as being faulty. and try fitting a new snsor,

Thank you so much, Martin. They are saying that because I removed the satnav (years ago), their T4 stops at that point and cannot jump to the next area that needs to be checked.
Is there any credence to this?
The gobby service manager said they had to use another, generic test kit. "Wot I said, do you mean one that can diagnose all cars?"
"Yes, that's right" replied the gobshite.

I think in a logical way. What has changed in my car that could affect temperature? Thermostat. The new one may be faulty, or they may have bought a cheap one and to muddy the waters written down the known Rover part no. for the stat.

I wish I had just had new plugs done, oil change, MoT, plus one ignition coil.

I did tell the service manager a few home truths when I collected my car. He blushed, but was still spouting nonsense. However, I think he was genuinely shocked when, following my call to Simon, I phoned garage and told them I do NOT want them to change sensor, and not to do any further work.

If the garage connects t4 and then tries to scan the ecus, it will stop at the satnav as it wouldn’t be able to communicate for obvious reasons.

They have to go into the ecus individually to check them, it is easily doable.

The other way is to alter the zcs coding to tell the car not to look for the sat nav in future (although I suspect they wouldn’t know how to do that if they can’t get past the first hurdle)

I will be honest, i don't know enough about the T4 system to say, but i doubt that removing the sat nav would effect it, but i do understand engines, and everything points to either the thermostat not opening, or a sensor not reading right, not telling the ecu, to open the thermostat, has the timing been disturbed? belts changed etc? if not it has to be either of those, or occasionally both, a sensor can fail, thing is even genuine parts now are after market, so its possible that they might not be as good as what was fitted in the factory, I tend to stick with OEM stuff. even then, it can be a hit or miss.

While I am typing a post, this forum logs me out! Doing post again.
Yes Martin, the TIMING BELT assembly was replaced because the tensioners were rattling. Also the water pump, because I think the belt drives the pump.
In what way would a new cambelt affect temperature?
On reflection, I should not hv gone ahead with that work because the whole assembly would have outlived me!

For information Lida your engine doesn't have a timing chain, it has three belts instead.
Yes, the water pump is driven by the front timing belt.

Simon

I tend to type posts in 'notepad' and then copy & paste. I have a history of losing posts (not on this forum) and having to start all over again.

You're absolutely right, Daveo. From now on I will prepare all posts in Word.

TRIKEY - In my letter to garage, I am going to use your sentence about testing ECUs individually which they could have done. Garage either lazy B. or thick B.

(What does ZCS stand for?)

You're right, it wasnt scuffed. Garage says they used the vacuum method.

TOURERSTEVE - Thanks for the info on that thermometer. I've just ordered one today.

Zcs translates from German ‘central coding’ the garage should be able to do it as it’s standard on T4.

Assuming they can operate T4 correctly Andy. I applaude my fellow forum members for helping lida out with this, either physically or with advice/input.

Which they have already demonstrated that they cannot. :duh: :getmecoat:

Simon

Lida, next time you go to log in to the forums, after entering your username tick the ‘remember me’ box before entering your password and logging in.

That way your computer or phone will keep you logged in all the time and you can take as long as you need to type your posts :sunny:

Just a quick post on the above. Should the fan really be kicking in this time of year, unless sitting in stationary traffic? Are there two sensors that read temperature? Anyone with half a brain knows that temperature guages do not move quickly and lag behind the true situation.

No it shouldn't Ian, that's what the garage's Service Manager fails to understand.
No, only one. The Service Manager has not adequately explained from where he has obtained the 83˚ reading but I suspect it's from the open expansion tank which he also referred to.

Simon

Thank you REEBS, I am doing that now! It's getting thoughts together that delays me, because my typing speed is actually 75+ wpm.

Hello v-man. Thank you for your post. I am calling it "running hot".

I monitored my car for a week following original repairs, and have told service manager that it is NOT normal for a Rover 75 in the cool weather we had in March to be showing engine coolant temps between 102-111. My short 2½ mile trip from my house to Tesco should not cause fan speed 1 to come on either.

He got aggressive with me and asked me how I knew about the temps. I informed him that I was accessing the onboard diagnostic. He then asked how I was accessing that (I don't think he believed me, or he didnt know himself).

Then, of course, he and the sales manage had to put a story together and they came up with the following. There is a disparity between engine temp and coolant temp and the diagnostic that I use is not reliable. It goes on .........

In his efforts to convince me otherwise, the service manager told me that he had himself acquired a new car last year and that during his 2½ mile journeys his fan also came on! The lengths & depths the idiot went to to convince me that everything is A-OK are laughable.

Would you like me to come down and have a technical chat with the garage while you are present?

It seems to me they are hoping you will just let this go!!

You could demonstrate how to use a T4.


They would probably not comprehend what you would be talking to them about as they don't seem to know much. I assume they are like most "garages" now and employ fitters, rather than mechanics.


I have the same train of thought, the "we know what we are talking about, the customer doesn't" attitude.

Thank you so much for your offer, Trikey, most generous - but as others have said they would just send us on our way.

They would not allow you to speak to the mechanic, man to man, nor will you get past their wall of having been successfully in business for over 120 years - and, the most damning - she won't allow us to change the sensor!

So after road tests (which I now believe were never done) and telling me I was wrong about the temp being too high, an I.P. has informed them belatedly that a sensor is faulty. Why didnt the road test on same morning confirm excessive temp? There is nothing consistent in what they say because they are liars.

That's extremely generous of you Andy, particularly as it would be a 300 mile round trip for you. :eek:

Unfortunately it would be a waste of your time and money and would result in deep frustration but perhaps also a revelation of how bad an ex-MG Rover main dealer can be.

The other difficulty is that the current Service Manager, who clearly is incompetent in the rôle, is a relative (probably son) of the Managing Director. :o

Simon

Look how clever one of our members is - KAISER in S.Africa. He designed and arranged production of a metal housing for the thermostat, instead of buying standard plastic. Available in the UK too.

https://www.dmgrs.co.uk/products/kai...32798608818312

I received reply from MD of the NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD- garage I took my KV6 to, and who left me with a car that seems to be running hot. In real time via the odometer, I can see the temps ranging from 96 upwards. (The max I've reached is 111°C. Fans come on A-OK as they should, but the point is no fan should come on after a 2½ mile journey in this cool weather.

Her letter says: "Thank you for your letter, having now investigated the matter fully with all the relevant staff, we are satisfied the work that has been carried out to your vehicle has not been detrimental. As previously advised to rectify the cooling fan cutting in too early, we can only suggest that the temperature sensor is replaced at a cost of £66.43 including non-manufacturers parts (we cann procure Rover parts), labour and VAT. Unfortunately, if this does not rectify the issue we would suggest that you return the vehicle to your previous garage tht have been maintaining the vehicle and who you have built a relationship with."

What a prattish letter. Her son, the service manager, was from day 1 gratuitously rude and sarcastic to me and, quite frankly, that's when I should have collected the car without works being done. I sent her a long letter with some great technical points (submitted by SD1too) and she hasnt addressed any of them. And, for obvious reasons no one on her staff is going to say anything that supports my version of the truth.

Any suggestions please as to how to reply? I want my reply to be short & sweet but punchy. Short replies like hers are essentially a F**k You, so I want to return the compliment. I have actually drafted something already.

The story continues ...
 

I asked Lida to bring her car over to me this afternoon so that I could check the garage's claim that the coolant temperature sensor is over-reading and that consequently there is nothing wrong with the cooling system.

We correlated the displayed temperature and resistance of the sensor with the data in RAVE and they all matched. There was no error of the magnitude declared by the garage.

Strangely the bottom radiator hose was hot today, as it should be (previously it's been tepid). At Lida's last visit I refilled and bled the cooling system, leaving the level in the expansion tank at 'max'. Today, once again, the level had risen to the neck of the tank. I agree with Trikey that normally this is evidence of an air lock. However, the garage said that vacuum equipment had been used when refilling and I have subsequently drained, bled and refilled on two further occasions, so if it is an airlock it's the most stubborn I have ever encountered.

Although there is no reason to suspect the expansion tank cap, we decided to test drive Lida's car with my cap fitted. We began on local residential roads at 20 mph when the temperature remained in the low nineties. However, as soon as speed was increased and sustained at 30 mph on an 'A' road, the reading rose quite quickly to 99˚. As we continued it nudged above 100˚ and most strange of all, when returning to 20 mph over speed humps it was up to 107˚ then rapidly reducing to 99˚ in a matter of seconds, more quickly than fan action would achieve.
This is the same behaviour that Lida's observed with her own expansion cap fitted so we can eliminate that as a cause.

I learnt today that the garage obtained the replacement thermostat and pipes from a Land Rover parts supplier.

Simon

I'm glad you are seeing this through, Simon. Not surprised, glad. I don't know if the offending (and offensive) garage was ever named, but I can't imagine why it wouldn't be. I'm sure other owners would like to know who to avoid.

So, where does today's results lead? Faulty thermostat? Maybe intermittently or sometimes to a different degree? Oops, I didn't mean to be punny! Maybe a physical restriction that affects how much it actually opens - burrs on the centre pin, or something?

Cheers,
Glenn

Thank you Glenn for your interest and appreciation! :D
Yes, the offending garage was named by Lida earlier in this thread.
Like you, I suspect the thermostat.

Simon

Thanks to Simon for posting this update. A drive starts off well, and Simon was optimistic that this gremlin had gone. But from my drive to his this morning I too got my hopes up, and of course it turned out to be a flash in the pan.

There appears to be no correlation between speed, gradient and coolant temp. In fact, Simon remarked today that he would have expected the temp to reduce when driving briskly, but in fact (sometimes) temp fell to normal range when driving at just below 30 mph.

I'm throwing out this puzzle to anyone interested to solve it. Today the coolant level was just a bit higher than it has been in the last week. I know it suggests an airlock, but where would that have come from?

If the thermostat is opening, closing and half-closing erratically, could that fault be responsible for creating enough turbulence in the coolant to create an airlock?

On my way home, I reached 111°C, but a little later reduced to 92, then up again.

The other thing I would be interested to find out is how the hell did the garage access the thermostat housing in order to fit another one? Looking around there is no evidence that screws or other retainers have been removed, and there's dust where you would expect it to be. Even with the air filter housing removed, and working sideways, it seems an unlikely route. Therefore, what is the famous 'sideways' approach?

Remove throttle body and access the thermostat that way, I doubt the garage would have done it that way though as they don’t sound competent enough!

The garage may have fitted land rover parts, but its not unknown for a new part to fail straight out of the box, often with manufacturing defects, such as a malformed pin, or something, that prevents the item performing as intended, only way is to try another thermostat, see if that clears the issue, I would be very surprised if its an air lock because the system has been bled several times now.

Thanks Martin. That's what I suggested to the garage. I think logically and, afterall, what new component could affect temp if not the stat? But it would have been another pile of money, because they were not willing to do at their cost. I don't know whether the following system exists, but surely a garage can cross-charge Land Rover for removal and installation of a new stat.

Key hole surgery :D

https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s...d.php?t=129825


I did mine back in 2014 but alas all the photo are missing now.:mad:

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/for...1&postcount=27

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/for...1&postcount=32

ARCTIC. This is magnificent! Very well written and the photos are an invaluable guide. The bit that worries me is of course the throttle body, because spring-loaded bits & bobs, or brittle ones, may crumble or ping off never to be seen again - and then what do you do?

If I do go ahead with all of this work to solve why my 75 is running hot and also giving erratic temp readings, and then we find that the thermostat is not the culprit, I wouldnt know where to go from there.

Thanks again, this is a wonderful forum.

Was there a result to this thread ??--Have I missed it ??--:shrug:

I'm still in touch with Lida Jon and no, you haven't missed anything.

Simon

Any updates?

Hello Tourer, The erratic temp continued, and I observed it in real time thru the diagnostic. Two weeks ago, while driving, the diagnostic screen suddenly registered -128 degrees, the temp gauge on the dash became disabled dropping to the resting position, and the 2nd speed cooling fan came on. On reaching home I switched off car but fan kept on running. I waited 25 mins and then had to disconnect battery - the only way to stop the fan.

I'm assuming the culprit is the coolant temp sensor and it has now totally failed. Apparently if the ECM does not receive an engine coolant signal it will indicate to the CAN bus that it cannot supply the engine temp. I understand that, but why would the fan stay on after car ignition is off ...... open circuit?

Anyway, I am sick of explaining to garages that the temp gauge on the dash will always remain at just under half-way and should not be taken as a sign that all is well (the only time the needle will rise is when radiator is in dire need of water). It's a feature of the KV6 as we know.

She's not been used since then - too risky because the cooling fan being on all the time is drawing more energy than the alternator can generate back to the battery.

Whilst it is true that the rad fan would remain on after the keys have been removed in an overheat situation I have yet to know one stay on for 25 mins.

It is also correct that if the temp sender fails to send a signal then the rad fan is also activated but I am under the impression this is only whilst the ign is on.

In most cases where a rad fan is operating all the time (key in or key out situation) it has been because the relay in the relay box has failed and remained in the energised position.

More than happy for anyone to advise me if I have this wrong?

Hi Stocktake, If the second culprit is the relay, is this an electrical failure or of a component?

Hi Lida sorry your car is still not sorted think most of us had assumed Simon had sorted it for you, If you are stuck and have breakdown cover bring it up to me and I will sort it for you

Dave

It is the most likely component failure but I fear it is not your only problem, but one brought about by constant requirement.

Here's an update from me for followers of this thread.

Lida telephoned me earlier this month to report the erroneous temperature gauge reading and the constantly running fan. At my request she carried out a few tests and I concluded that her slow speed relay contacts had fused in the "made" position. It also appears that the coolant temperature sensor circuit is faulty. During our engine inspection together in the spring we noticed that the ex-MG Rover main dealer had routed the wiring harness from this sensor incorrectly. Instead of crossing the 'V' towards the rear of the RH bank of cylinders, the garage had laced the wires in a spiral around a coolant hose in the direction of the throttle body and it is possible that any consequent damage to the conductors is responsible for the apparent erratic signal to the ECM. I was not able to locate the connector in this circuit without dismantling.

In the spring I had offered to take Lida's car to dismantle and inspect the work done by the garage in an attempt to reach a reliable diagnosis and carry out the necessary repairs. She appeared to want more time to consider her next move and I did not hear from her again until her recent phone call. I very much regret that, owing to other major projects, I am unable to take her car at the moment. I therefore recommended that she takes it to Lates who is best placed to help her. I have the impression that she is giving this suggestion consideration.

Stocktake's posts above are very helpful and I agree with his thinking.

Simon

Thank you Dave, but as the cooling fan is constantly on, it is too risky to drive her any significant distance. The fan uses far more power than can be replenished back to the battery. Lates is too far away, and Russell at MG Rover Solutions in Kent said he wasnt interested (too far), though I thought he was running a mobile service and I would have paid him travelling time.

Hi folks. This bit I put in bold in Lida's post has me baffled. The alternator ought to be putting out over 14 volts. That should be plenty to run the cooling fan non-stop while driving the car - maybe with the exception of hours of stop and go urban driving. If that were the case, maybe turn the high draw electrical things off for the trip to Lates. You know, things like the heater, blower on low, electric window defrost, etc.

:wot:

Me too Glenn because I did advise Lida on the telephone that when the car is being driven the alternator will generate sufficient current to run the fan continuously at slow speed. MG Rover would have made sure of this for drivers who use the air conditioning on every trip.

Lida's probably wary because her battery was depleted, as you'd expect, when the fan ran continuously for half an hour with the engine stopped.

Thanks for pointing this out Glenn.

Simon

Thank you for your post. Two people have told me it is a journey they would not do themselves. One of them was an RAC man. I hardly ever use high-draw electrics in that car, not even the heater. I just would not travel 85 miles, esp. as I do not have nationwide breakdown.

I bought a temp sensor from Mat at Discount Rover, as well as a windscreen washer grommet in case that is the cause of a leaking reservoir - though I suspect it's the reservoir itself, which Mat says is pricey.