Supermarket Diesel. Does it clog injectors ?
 

Reading today that supermarkets will be, "slashing", diesel by 3p by the weekend, there was a claim their diesel is inferior, having additives that clog injectors. Quite apart from the cost of their fuel rose by an average of 11p a litre during April/May, it's hardly a "slash"

It is concerning to read their product may cause problems.

It is welcome though, to read of a reduction, if only for a couple of weeks when it will be back to its former price....or dearer.

I normally use Asda for my diesel. I'm thinking it may be wise to buy elsewhere.

If it did do that wouldn't there be an awful lot of cars broken down....
Isn't fuel made to some sort of "standard" quality?

I would imagine so Nick. I haven't noticed any reduction in performance etc. It just a niggling thing in the back of my mind.

I have never used anything other than "Super Market" fuels, never had a problem:shrug: And that is in 140k miles and 15 years;)

Theres always threads popping up by people claiming that supermarket fuel gives them less mpg, runs a little rougher, higher emissions etc etc.

I just put in what is nearer / cheaper or more convenient for myself at the time. The two nearest petrol stations to me are Morrisons and Asda. I would have thought that over the years 70% of my fuel has been from supermarket pumps with no apparent negatives.

If you're concerned about additives or the lack of why not put your own in raising the cetane / octane ratiing as well as claimed lubrication and cleansing properties.

I have started using this stuff of late, not religously every fill up but when I remember.

https://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/arch...yAAEgJnC_D_BwE

So called premium fuels from branded petrol stations are about 10p a litre more expensive that their regular fuel, using an additive such as that above reduces that to more like less than 3p a litre more and when used in supermarket fuel rather than branded fuel costs far less than Texaco, BP, Shell etc in general with presumably most if not all of the benefits of their premium fuel.

Yes - Mon and Ron specs

Hale and Pace characters weren’t they?

There was something about this on the One Show this week. They said that all petrol comes from just a handful of manufacturers and the specification is the same for all brands and supermarkets buying power, lower margins together with getting you in the store to buy your groceries is the reasons they are cheaper. They interviewed QA inspectors who said it was all the same and manufacturer management.

They then went on to say that then the branded suppliers may then put their own additives in to clean the engine, burn more efficiently etc.

I have used both branded and supermarket and found on the diesel that BP was a little smoother than Sainsburys and a lot smoother than Morrisons which I stopped using and gave about 3 more mpg. But if I used Sainsburys and Redex the results were similar and works out cheaper.

On petrol I run my Dolomite on Sainsburys Super Unleaded with a lead and petrol stabiliser additive and it runs well. Dolomite engines vary, some can run on unleaded but mine cant. However when I have used Esso, BP etc it runs much better and has more power. My Volvo recommends using Super Unleaded for better performance and economy and standard unleaded is ok to use. I use both but find that if I use Sainsburys unleaded I get the bad egg smell. Had every thing checked out in case and was told it was the fuel. Their super unleaded, which is in now in the tank is better the car runs and gives better economy by a couple of mpg but still gets the odd whiff of bad eggs. If I use BP from around the corner the standard unleaded runs as well as the Sainsburys super and costs about the same or a little more and no smells so that's what I use mainly. The Super duper stuff they sell does improve on this and I can tell its in but the cost puts me off it.

I remember talking to a tanker driver many years ago. He advised me that there are only a couple of refineries; the same fuel goes into all the tankers, and they all deliver it to each other anyway.

Fuel will indeed come from a small number of refineries. What is different is the additives that manufacturers put into their fuel.

I can only say what I have found, on my car (my dad had similar findings). Using 'Go' fuel which is an unmanned fuel station, that sells fuel at supermarket prices (not sure if it is available on the mainland), and the car went fine, started fine, ran fine, and got for my commute around 420 - 430 miles for each tankful.

Started using Maxol (at their unmanned stations), and the car went fine, and started fine, but it felt a little more eager. It was different, nothing I could say was measurable, it just 'felt' different. When I first used it, it was purely to fill up, and not because it was a branded fuel. As it was convenient on my way home, I started to use it each time on my way home. (ironically it used to be the most expensive fuel on my route home, but now as cheap as the Go - plus it is beside an MG dealer). A fill will now get me 440 - 450 miles.

My dad said he noticed using the Maxol, he would get a few more miles out of a tank. But it like mine, was only about 10-15. He didnt notice any improvement on running though, but his is a petrol :shrug:.

As I said, the different is just how it feels, it just seems more eager, just different, and I cannot even say it is faster or anything like that.

For super unleaded, or super duper diesel, I would suggest you would have to have the car mapped to suit. Or if an older car, the timing would need to be adjusted to take advantage of the extra rons and cetanes. All this 'cleaner burn' advantages may well be true, but I cannot see how it will make the piston throwdown faster within the same stroke whilst the fuel fires and expands into the same space.

What looks like an unmanned fuel station has recently appeared in our town. It is in fact a charging station for up to 6 electric vehicles and it is equipped to charge a lot faster than plugging in at home. Apparently you can add ~ 180 miles of range in about 20 mins and nearby Newcastle is earmarked for one too. Click

That's progress for you - I can add 600 miles range in 2 minutes. :}

I have always filled up with the cheapest derv I can find and the injectors are original and still working fine.

I can confirm that Big Ron's injectors are among the best I've seen, and like Mike I use the cheapest DERV I can find.

You can kid yourself your car runs better using "premium" branded fuel, but I've tried them all, and it makes not one jot apart from the hit to your wallet, fine if you do 5000 miles a year, not so if you do 40,000 miles a year :getmecoat:

Brian :D

I should add, my B4 and B5.5 Passats felt no different between fuels. Although the Xtype didnt seem to care what fuel was used, but apparently didnt like red (according to the service history at the dealer, there were traces of red usage in the fuel system, along with metallic particles suspected to be coming from the pump).

And there are thousands of people that do. :D

Avoid Highest Percentage of Biodiesel?
 

I've used ASDA wherever possible, because I could rely on good performance. I've been loathe to other diesels because, a few years ago, tanks full of Morrisons and even Shell V-Power coincided with the engine running rough. I was told that these diesels contained a higher percentage of biodiesel than some other brands. I assume that such problems have by now been resolved, but trust is hard to regain.

I generally fill up with sainsburys, and it runs fine. I have used shell and BP in the past, again it runs fine.

However, the last couple of fill ups have been with Esso, and although it runs the same I have noticed it's quieter. Less diesel noise.

I don't believe that any of the fuels would clog up injectors - all fuel sold in the UK meets a minimum specification. Driving variables are far more likely to determine whether a car's injectors clog up over time. Hence Mike Noc's experience highlighted above.

Having said the above, irrespective of who pumps the fuel out of the ground or who refines it, the additives determine differences between fuels sold by different chains. This does mean that the design of each fuel being sold is altered by the additives.

There was a set of tests done by the AA some years ago and it showed that Shell V Power produced around 7% better MPG than many other fuels. This is consistent with my own experience of V Power in a petrol and a diesel car. I prefer to use shell in all my cars and mostly V Power. I also add 75ml of Millers Ecomax to each tankful of diesel. This combination delivers a totally different responsiveness from the CDT than using other fuels without the Millers additive. Let's just say that I have never felt the need for any remaps etc.


Here is the thread from 2013 discussing the AA report. https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/for...d.php?t=163356

It appears we have finally discovered a failing in Master Brian - his ears and possibly other senses are not so finely tuned as one might have expected. :D

Ahh.. but what type of electricity is it? If it is nuclear generated you will get less mpg in your greenmobile than if it is generated using wind power.

Should that be miles per amp/hour?:}:D:shrug:

A useful link MSS. I used to be involved in several oil distribution terminals including two with refineries alongside, albiet over 25 years ago. Intially the first major supermarket to sell petrol and diesel bought fuel on the spot market which was then imported into the UK for their exclusive use, this situation didn't last long, ultimately the supermarkets would draw out of the same stock as some of the major fuel companies. The only difference would be at the point the road tankers were loaded at the terminal if it was for a supermarket no additives were injected into the load whereas for the major oil companies their respective additive would be added. I only purchase petrol or diesel from a petrol company and add Millers to diesel and Redex to petrol, it's down to personal choice and as I don't use supermarket fuel can't make a comparison

As my experience is 25 years ago and a lot may have changed since then and fully understand why anyone doing a high mileage would go for the cheapest fuel available as its so expensive now. Being fortunate enough that I can cycle to work my total annual mileage in all cars is no more than 6000.

One tip I will offer is if I see a tanker delivering to a petrol station I won't fill up there right after as any sediment and water at the bottom of the storage tank is intially stirred up by the discharge and needs time to settle.

In one word No.

Years back, when my dad was alive, he used to drive for Fina (a name from the past that the younger generation will probably not have heard of), at a small depot in Kingsnorth, near Hoo in Kent.

They used to draw fuel at the BP refinery on the Isle of Grain. Along with Fina, from what I recall dad said, all major brands drew their fuel from there. Recall hearing stories from neighbours talking to him, stating that the 'old Prefect or Consul would only run on Shell, where another's Cresta would only run on BP. You don't hear that conversation theses days!!!

Bringing this up to date, the same conversation would now be Mr Green's Nissan Leaf runs better on SSE electric, where as next door, Mr Jones gets a better charge and range on Eon power!!!

I have near enough always used supermarket fuel in the ZT, although it is petrol, and have used their diesel in the E350. That said, when chatting to them about fuels, the independent Mercedes garage that services it did say that there are less additives in supermarket fuel than in premium brands like Esso etc. Never personally had a problem though.

As a footnote, with regards to diesel and fuel prices, there used to be a 1 / 2p difference, but now up to 10p or more in some cases.

Greedy wholesalers / retailers I suppose robbing the motorist once again!!! :shrug:

Regards,

Dave.

Badditives - Biodiesel
 

:Yes, but.................something can go wrong

To borrow a saying used by a learned and respected member, "the twoof is out there" (at least I think that's what he said)

http://www.mycleandiesel.com/pages/Biodiesel.aspx

There was a huge and well reported incidence of bad biodiesel getting to the pumps about 6 years ago. it affected whole fleets of company cars.

Things are obviously better now, but using diesel with biodiesel additives is like playing Russian roulette - albeit with a very large chamber. I've got the bullet a couple of times.:shrug:

Remember when we would put tigers in our tanks. I found this on an old VHS tape some years ago and felt it worth preserving.

Never believe simple, absolute, few word answers. They are invariably wrong.


"Only the Sith deal in absolutes" :D

I have to use ethanol free petrol for my Triumph, otherwise my tank would be wrecked like this:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...1e04b26b_c.jpg

I have seen worse! When I was looking for a 955i, around 3 years ago, many of the low mileage, cared for, little used machines had tank damage caused by ethanol.

I agree with mss about the higher mileage users getting away with it, as the fuel doesn't have chance to separate out into a water/fuel di-phase.

I use Esso Supreme as it does not contain ethanol from the terminal that supplies my area. ;)
I wrote to their technical boys, who confirmed this in writing.
For me, It has nothing to do with octane rating.
As my V6 covered 1400 miles between the last 2 MOTs so it has the same fuel as I don't want an aggressive, corrosive cocktail in the tank.

For high mileage people the "normal stuff" is probably fine, as long as it doesn't hang around too long.

The point is, despite the fact that we all know a mate of a mate, down the pub, who knows a mate that drives a fuel tanker that says "it is all the same, mate". :D
It isn't. ;)

Friend of mine used to drive tankers. He said they would queue up 4am in the morning - hundreds of them in lines from every company - Shell, Esso, Morrisons, Tesco ... And they'd all fill up from the same pumps. Suffice to say he never pays a premium for his fuel and neither do I.

Thank you for that post that illustrates my point! :D

This topic has been around for years and years. I have no idea of the truth but certainly in its early years it was rife that supermarket fuels caused cars to run rough.
May be it was true but even if it was is it true now?
If supermarket fuel is as good as branded is the stories from years ago the reason why some people rightly or wrongly think supermarket fuel is rubbish?

There are a lot of supermarket petrol stations, would they still be in business if their product was rubbish?


I use branded fuels mainly because their petrol stations are on my route, to use supermarket petrol stations I would have to go out of my way. Also perhaps because we have home delivery so don't venture to a supermarket unless on holiday.

When I towed my caravan with my Honda Accord I did find/imagine that one branded fuel was better then another. Cant recall which it was but the car did not seem to labour as much.

macafee2

All of the petrol variants of our cars are tuned in the UK to use 95 Ron fuel, there is absolutely no benefit whatsoever in using 98 Ron fuel, the car will not run better, you will not become irresistible to the opposite sex, and your car will not do an extra 50 MPG.

Higher octane fuel is less prone to pinking............so if you need to fuel your P6 V8 with five star, then you can still buy "real" petrol from BMH.



Back to the here and now, other markets are tuned for lower Octane fuels, Australia for instance use 92 RON fuel, and their "premium" fuel is actually 95 RON

With the low mileage cars, I leave only a small amount of fuel in there, and when pressed into action, fill as required as modern fuels tend to go stale when standing, due to the ethanol content as required by the EU,being both hygroscopic and having a tendency to evaporate off, this of course applies to both 95 and 98 RON fuel.

Another fact, the higher the octane rating, the higher the temperature of the spark required to ignite the mixture, this is why the ignition system of cars running LPG need to be in top condition.......incidentally LPG is circa 110 RON, however the calorific value is lower than petrol, so you have to burn 20% more to achieve the same output.

It's not all about octane either, a little light reading HERE

Brian :D

Surely even if it does, you can buy cleaners that you just put in with the fuel. i.e: Redex, they do multiple cleaners for diesel and petrol engines
And it’s fairly inexpensive


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What rubbish from an armchair expert. Try filling up your cars with V Power and discover that you are constantly fighting to escape the sexual desires of the opposite sex and occasionally the same sex.

Real men do not fill up with Supermarket fuel! ;):D

The only proven way to get more mpg from your car is an industry secret .................................
Move your seat back a notch!;) Moving it forwards gives you more power, less MPG and cramp on long journeys (unless using cruise control, which is being debated elsewhere!).:shrug:

Have to agree. My wifes sister has lived down Ellesmere Port for 28 years and her husband worked at the shell refinery for 16 years filling the tankers. They fill the supermarket tankers from the exact same pump as the shell tankers.
He just laughs and says is that myth still going about.

Could it also be that the premium fuel cleaned the injectors etc. and this is benefiting the follow-on refills with non-premium fuel? :shrug:

I wonder if cleaning the egr help too? It is an emissions control device after all.

Sent from my SM-A600FN using Tapatalk

Best give Esso Petroleum a bell then, Brian, and tell them that their Technical Data Sheet is wrong, as is their FAQ on their website. :p: :D

:smilie_re:https://www.esso.co.uk/fuels-faqs

I am not saying it isnt, although I would imagine it would take more than one oil change (on what I assume to be a regularly serviced engine :} - an oil or PCV filter change may do it too) , and a fill of fuel to do it. I can see the potential in the fuel having a little improvement once it had got well through the system - though I am not convinced.

If the EGR was sticking, and you used fluid to clean or even nudging the actuator to wipe may have loosened it up to work. Removing the vacuum pipe and refitting even could have got it going again.

I have to say though, at present and for the past 12 or 13 years we dont have emissions tests on the diesels, after they were abandoned due to concerns of engine failures. :shrug::shrug::shrug::duh::duh::duh::duh::eek::eek ::eek:

The 5w40 part of the oil wont be the benefit, but the ACEA rating as this relates to ash(?) content or something - even the oil change itself could possibly be the issue? :shrug: The Redex, may well maintain the fuel system, again I whilst I do not know, I think with modern fuels and tolerances etc it is less benefit than it would have been 30/40 years ago. It showed absolutely no benefit to me when I compared injector readings on an overnight soak with redex compared to an overnight soak the following week with Forte (they are very different products though!). I do believe Redex to be unnecessary in this day and age. Like a dying atheist, converting to christianity, I still buy it when on offer and add it when I remember ;). But the injectors will still wear down over time (affecting spray pattern, volume etc).

There are simply too many variables for me to suggest that it was the fuel.

Did you know that you can get more or less feeling of power depending on the material your trousers are made from ???

Most of the guys on this thread use the seat of their pants as a finely tuned instrument to make their judgements.

So guys, try silk pants on leather seats to give yourselves the thrill of your lives.----:D

Go on; you know it makes sense.--;)

At least as much sense as this thread.--:p:

Yer.---:bowdown:



Now for the chemistry lesson: Oil is a hydrocarbon fuel, meaning the individual molecules contain carbon and hydrogen atoms chained together. Modern petrol is blended according to various recipes, the active ingredients for which include about 200 different hydrocarbons, each with a spine of between 4 and 12 carbon atoms. One of them, isooctane, consists of 8 carbon and 18 hydrogen atoms (C8H18) and is exceptionally resistant to exploding spontaneously when exposed to the heat and pressure found inside a typical combustion chamber. Another, n-heptane (C7H16) is highly susceptible to such self-ignition.

These two compounds are therefore used to rate the knock resistance of all petrol blends. Petrol that resists knock the way a mixture of 87-percent isooctane and 13-percent n-heptane would is rated at 87. Racing fuels with octane ratings over 100 resist self-ignition even better than pure isooctane. The octane ratings for regular-grade fuel range from 85 to 87, mid grades are rated 88 to 90, and 91 and higher is premium.

None of what you or Marinabrian says means that a car that is tuned (i.e. optimised) to run with a certain RON or Cetane fuel will not benefit from a higher rated fuel. The reason is that there are always multiple variables under consideration when optimising any thermal or physical process.

You need to do some real-world tests instead of trying to baffle members with atomic structures of hydrocarbons.

It appears that some members may speak with their trousers full :D;)

Yesterday I was sat in a garage waiting for the MOT to be completed on my Volvo and a lady came in to discuss the problems she was having with her Volvo. The owner of the garage had just come back from test driving her car and was in a discussion with his mechanics as she arrived. He was saying to them the car was doing everything as it should and he could not find a fault and nothings showing up when its plugged in to the computer. One of the mechanics said that on his test a few days earlier it did what she was complaining of and was stuttering under load in second. The owner asked if they knew what petrol she used and the foreman said he had told her she put in good stuff.

It was at this point the owner came in and she was told that under this test test they did not reproduce the fault and again nothing was showing up. He then said where do you fill up, she replied Morrisons. He said that will be your problem, we get cars in here all the time with problems like this who fill up at a named branch. If we don't find a fault we advise changing to a branded petrol and after a few fill ups see what happens. The majority come back and say its cured, those that still persist we clean out the injectors etc and then that resolves it, so do the cheapest first. She was not to responsive to this so he went to the back of the room got a bottle off a shelf and said this is out of an Audi this week, its diesel from that branch having the same problem. The bottom of the bottle was full of black particle sediment which he shook up. We kept this because we were surprised how much there was in the tank. The car was too new for it to be from deteriorating hoses etc all was in good condition, but this was in the filters, pumps and injectors and from new he had only used Morrisons from that branch. She left convinced and then a conversation in the waiting area was had on where we all fill up and what with. 20% me included reported running problems with cars that ended when we stopped using Morrisons.

My conclusions are that the evidence shows all companies buy the same basic fuels and then some add into that their own chemicals and additives to create better combustion, cleaner engines, hence those who recommend and prefer V Power etc. So all cars should run well and cleanly on any petrol/diesel, but some like my Volvo may smell of bad eggs when running supermarket fuel but that in fact is not harmful just embarrassing. Deposits that can block up injectors and cause poor running comes from dirty storage not the petrol tanks. It could well be that some retailers are better at looking after their storage tanks than others.

"It appears that some members speak with there trousers full" lol Love it.

Where did you read this information in, was it a peer-reviewed scientific publication by any chance or one of the nation's daily publications jammed packed page to page with ground breaking unbiased, well researched and evidence-based information, you know the kind of ground breaking publication I am talking about.... the Sun, Daily Mail, this kind of thing,
All fuel sold in the Uk is fine the regular stuff is fine.

Normally? is that a mistake?

Used cheap supermarket fuel my whole life, never had any bother

Who remembers the dreaded ‘diesel bug’ ?

Personally, I think it makes more sense to either buy branded fuel or use something like Millers EcoMax additive that is kinder to the engine. I almost always use Shell not only as it’s closest but also because of the Shell Go app benefits. I do find the car runs better.
My V6 cars have always performed better with VPower, though the livelier boost you get from the fuel means your economy drops quite a bit as you enjoy the drive

The M47 is a pretty uncomplicated engine compared to modern diesel engines. (Thats why they are so reliable and are capable of doing mega miles!)Newer diesels have Coded injectors, electric EGR valves and DPF filters to say the least. I go to a lot of people (Diagnostic wise) who pootle around and very rarely give their car a decent run and use supermarket fuel only. Poor running car feels lumpy and the injector readings all over the place. A flush of Forte specialist injector cleaner and it usually sorts the poor running out.
If you are flying up and down the motorway I would say supermarket fuel is fine as the car is up to operating temperature and the engine is running freely and the exhaust gasses are being forced out as to say at a very high rate. I know many taxi driver (who do up to 60k a year and have very strict emission tests from the council and they almost run on pure injector cleaner when they go in for testing at the council) and they say Morrisons and Asda diesel is particularly smokier than other brands. Its all a matter of how you feel but I never get this problem when I visit people who use Shell or BP etc.
Many on here use supermarket fuel and use Millers etc or Redex to keep their engine "clean" which is the same as using premium brands that already have the additive in. No problems when you use it fine why would you change? Its al down to individual experience.:}

If you read my first post #9 you would have seen that I referred to using diesel in my ZT-T and other than Morrisons it ran as well with supermarket diesel and Redex as branded fuel. I then mentioned my petrol cars to add that the issue can effect them also.

The Volvo at the MOT was a diesel and the comments made by the garage referred to that car so were pertinent and the evidence he gave and was showing related to contamination in the fuel causing the problem and not necessarily the fuel itself. I had had the same issue after using Morrisons diesel which ended when I stopped using their fuel so I can only come to conclusions based on my experiences. I use supermarket fuel from Sainsbury's but not the 95 Ron petrol because of the bad egg smell not its performance. I check my fuel usage and do find for whatever reasons that on every occasion a tank of petrol goes further from BP than Sainsburys as with diesel unless with Redex added.

I have always accepted the fuels are all from the same plants but as was said on the TV just last week by the fuel manufacturing plants manager, additives are added by the brands after filling up their tankers. I do not accept that V Power etc. is the same as Morrisons or Sainsbury's etc because of this fact.

And if my trousers are full then it smells of roses.

This is basically it.

Also, just because one person's car has been fine and the driver does not notice any difference between different fuels when driving the car under their conditions does not mean that there will be no discenible difference when the car is driven under a different set of conditions.

Those who state with absolute certainty that different fuels do not make any difference and expres views such as "placebo effect" are actually highlighting a limitation in their understanding of the basics.

Or, maybe, some of us just have better tuned sences? ;):D

I head this from two sources, one, another forum , and secondly from the taxi driver taking me to the railway station when I started my trip to Surrey to collect the CTDI. He advised me to use Shell or BP outlets.

I was sceptical about what he said, and truth be told, I have used Asda to fill up, without issue.

My main aim when originating this thread was to gain knowledge from the guys here, and advice, when they offered it.

That's why this forum is so valuable. :bowdown::bowdown: